Author Topic: Order of SA's and Placed Enhancements.  (Read 6823 times)

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Order of SA's and Placed Enhancements.
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2008, 01:20:50 AM »
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Hey,

Tim, I thought you might be referring to the 7 sons ruling and I think I see your point about triggers here.  However, I think there is a difference in this situation.

Angel's Sword is triggered when Seven Sons enters battle.  Tithe is triggered when Jacob enters battle.  Angel's Sword waits until after Seven Sons completes its ability before being carried out.  Tithe waits until Jacob completes his ability before being carried out.  I'm not seeing the difference.

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But all three are activated so all three are carried out before the Obedience of Noah that was placed on Jacob, because the Obedience of Noah isn't activated it is triggered.
that statement seems to contradict:

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The next time that Hero enters battle that Enhancement activates and is discarded immediately.

Could you elaborate on why you think those contradict because I'm not seeing it.  I guess maybe if you're trying to apply an english definition to "immediately" but haven't we all learned by now not to apply english definitions to Redemption words :)

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When the hero is placed into battle the game rule "trigger" for weapon class enhancements is met and it activates;

A "trigger" causes the completion of an ability that started previously and just needs to finish.  Activation causes an ability to begin.  Weapons are not triggered when they enter battle they activate, because the ability had not previously started it's effect.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

Offline galadgawyn

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Re: Order of SA's and Placed Enhancements.
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2008, 09:48:46 PM »
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Could you elaborate on why you think those contradict because I'm not seeing it.  I guess maybe if you're trying to apply an english definition to "immediately" but haven't we all learned by now not to apply english definitions to Redemption words

The contradiction is not "immediately" but "activates/activated".  You said that Obedience isn't activated but triggered instead.  The card ability clearly says that the chosen enhancement "activates".

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A "trigger" causes the completion of an ability that started previously and just needs to finish.  Activation causes an ability to begin.  Weapons are not triggered when they enter battle they activate, because the ability had not previously started it's effect.

There is no trigger on Obedience of Noah;  there can be a trigger that is set by another card (like Tithe) that determines when Obedience activates.  Following your definitions, Obedience hasn't begun (or activated) before Jacob is put into battle; it is Tithe that started previously and is waiting to finish.  There is a game rule (which I compared to a trigger) that causes the weapon class enhancement to activate with the character when the character enters battle.  Basically I viewed abilities like Tithe to set up a similar situation with a special ability instead of with the game rule (regarding when they activate, not the holding them part).  I don't know if that was the intent.

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Angel's Sword is triggered when Seven Sons enters battle.  Tithe is triggered when Jacob enters battle.  Angel's Sword waits until after Seven Sons completes its ability before being carried out.  Tithe waits until Jacob completes his ability before being carried out.  I'm not seeing the difference.
I saw this problem when thinking about it over the weekend.  I feel like they should be different but I don't know if there is a clear way to define them differently.  A couple thoughts:

Why is a weapon class enhancement in the order of abilities and not always after the character?  How is the rule for activating weapon class enhancements written?  I don't have a rulebook with me. 

from the Reg:
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If a “choose opponent” card is one of multiple cards being banded together, the special abilities on all the banded characters must be completed before the opponent enters the Field of Battle.

So maybe Obedience of Noah is considered to be "on" Jacob and therefore will complete before a choose the blocker card. or

Angel's Sword gets triggered and has to wait for 7 Sons to complete, including all abilities on exchanged characters or weapon class enhancements and the "play next" chain that an exchanged character brought in, right?  Well maybe a Tithe-placed Obedience of Noah would wait for Jacob and all cards on him to completed first but again since Obedience is on Jacob and activated with him and not separately then it will complete as part of that group in the order listed. 

If that kind of logic does not apply then I would guess you are right. 

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Order of SA's and Placed Enhancements.
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2008, 11:07:02 PM »
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Hey,

The contradiction is not "immediately" but "activates/activated".  You said that Obedience isn't activated but triggered instead.  The card ability clearly says that the chosen enhancement "activates".

Ah, now I understand.  It seems I wasn't careful enough with my words.  Tithe places Obedience of Noah on Jacob.  It is Tithe that is triggered not Obedience of Noah.  Once Tithe is trigered it's ability is to activate Obedience of Noah.  The "which happens first" is between the triggering of Tithe and the activation of the character/weapon abilities, because it is only through Tithe being triggered that Obedience of Noah activates (if Title didn't say to activate the placed enhancement Obedience of Noah wouldn't activate at all and the question would be moot).

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

 


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