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Someone ought to lock this before it gets (even more) out of hand.

I'm not going to lock this thread because I think this can still be and should be discussed. Also, I think we're all adult enough to keep this going as a proper debate. It's not getting out of hand.

Now don't be too hard on Kevin.  He actually may be on to something.  It's not like players travel hundreds of miles to get beat that "one in a million" chance at a major tournament by something they cannot control...

...oh, wait...

They DO travel hundreds of miles.  Well, at least in the WEST we travel hundreds of miles.  I could attend three state tournaments in the NE during a trip to 7-Eleven.   

Kevin you do make make some good points about redemptions ability to create Lost Souls, but the discussion about how LS are generated in a game cannot hurt any and if you have a problem with the thread then dont post.  I appreciate your points and they are well taken but the idea that just because you dont agree with the idea behind a thread that it should be locked is a little extreme.

I did not say the post should be locked because I don't agree with it.  I think you have all made lucid, rational arguments.  But you've made the same arguments for 13 pages now without truly considering what the other people in the discussion are saying.  There's no end in sight to this thread, which is why I suggesting locking it.

It seems that some people feel that the element of Luck should be at least minimized in some of the categories.  Sure it cannot be completely eliminated but what harm can come by a discussion on how to minimize the "randomness" of a game that many people spend hours building decks for only to have them get beaten in that "one in a million" chance at a major tournament like Regionals or Nats by something that they cannot control?

No harm at all, except when it goes on forever.  Randomness is part of any card game.  You can never completely eliminate it.  Let's take your example of a second lost soul pile.  Pretend we change the rules and you have the two draw piles:  one lost soul pile and one for everything else.  What prevents the randomness that all your Heroes are in the bottom third of your deck?  Nothing, and if any other card you may have in your deck to get a Hero out (I Am Creator or Holy Grail for instance) is also at the bottom, what can you do?  You're going to sit there for a few turns and your opponent has a tremendous advantage.  So what should we do now?  Revise the rules where you have different piles for lost souls, Heroes, Evil Characters, Good Enhancements, Evil Enhancements, Fortresses, Artifacts, etc., and you draw from each pile on alternating turns or something just so you can say you're eliminating randomness?  How about every player just stacks his own deck?  There is no good way to eliminate randomness from Redemption.  It's always going to be there.

They DO travel hundreds of miles.  Well, at least in the WEST we travel hundreds of miles.  I could attend three state tournaments in the NE during a trip to 7-Eleven.

I live in Iowa and I've attended every Nationals for the past eight years.  I'm going again this year.  Regionals tournaments for me are usually in Minnesota or Ohio.  Even when they were close, it's Des Moines, nearly three hours away.  I travelled 90 minutes this year just to HOST my state tournament.  I travel as much as anyone, maybe Chris Bany excepted, and I don't think that's a good argument for changing the rules.

Kevin Shride

um... there have been a lot of changes that originated with player suggestions.  I'm not sure how to take this.

The ideas that I tend to discount are the ones that are wrapped in flowery phrases like "this game has become totally stupid and this card is obviously broken and you guys would know this if you weren't a bunch of Nazis who don't know beans about card games".

The ideas that I tend to discount are the ones that are wrapped in flowery phrases like "this game has become totally stupid and this card is obviously broken and you guys would know this if you weren't a bunch of Nazis who don't know beans about card games, and also don't realize that 0.4% is less than 0".

Fixed.

Little 12-year-old Johnny has to convince his parent(s) to transport him to tournaments.  It's one thing to see a young kid lose in 3 turns and stomp off in disappointment, but quite another for the parent to see this.  Forget seeing Johnny at the next tournament.

Honestly though this can still happen even if you change lost souls. Making more lost souls availible just makes EC's more critical.

If Little johnny's EC's hide at the bottom of the deck, it can very easily go like this (and this is using the ls pile, one ls drawn per 2 turns):

Turn 1, both d8 and draw a soul. Johnny goes 2nd.
Opponent RA's and Johnny can't block. 0-1.
Johnny RA's hoping to even the game, but opponent blocks with TAS and ultimately wins. 0-1.
Opponent RA's for his TAS. 0-2.
Johnny draws a LS and RA's, fails. 0-2.
Opponent RA's for his 2nd drawn soul and wins since johnny still has no ECs. SoG/NJ. 0-5.

I dont see how this ls issue will truely stop 3 turn losses. ECs are very good at hiding as well.

Turn 1, both d8 and draw a soul...

Why do they draw a lost soul?  With my idea, no lost soul is drawn at the beginning.

I'm just amazed that a playtester (Schaef) has even mentioned any support for an idea brought up by a player.  I guess Obama was right and we just have to hold on to hope for a change {pauses to shed tear}.

We are the change we've been waiting for. 

Not only that but,

    We are the world.
    We are the children.
    We are the ones who make a better day
    So let's start giving.

Yeah... my point earlier is that as the game stands, it is already a rare occurance for a game to be lost due to nothing but lost soul flood/drought.

I still want to see some people do a test on this. RR and I were discussing it, and we could do the following.

See how many games it takes for various deck styles to reach 3 to 5 games where a loss was due COMPLETELY to lost soul drawing. So, use speed, offense heavy without speed, balanced decks, defense heavy, and herolite/combo decks, and count how many games it takes for each category of deck.

I'd be willing to register any games I play towards this study. If we get a lot of players to participate, perhaps we could bump the number up to 10, just to have clearer results.

This will give us a good idea just how big of a problem this really is. However, I'm almost positive that the slower the deck runs, the less likely it'll run into problems. Also, Heroless is excluded, since it waits for the opponent to deck out anyways.

Quote

Also, Heroless is excluded, since it waits for the opponent to deck out anyways.

Not always. I've won 5-0 with a heroless deck in 4 turns before. (Ridiculous draw) 

Kirk

If Heroless can win in 4 turns, then we got problems. 

I think that both sides have brought up good points.  These are some thoughts that I have on them.

Pro-LS piles:
          I hope that Redemption is "young" in it's life cycle, not old.  So I don't see a problem making a change at this point.
          In addition to my support for the LS pile idea, I also really like the idea of letting someone pull out a LS each time they win a battle challenge.  This adds to the interactivity of the game by encouraging both more attacks and more blocks.

Con-LS piles:
          Even if the LSs come out at regular intervals, people could still have to wait if they don't have GCs, and would still have to give them away if they don't have ECs, and we don't want separate piles for everything.

As for evidence of how often LSs cause people to lose, I'll point to my Sealed Deck experience at EC Regionals last weekend.  I drafted a deck with the ability to generate 3 LSs (Hopper, Wedding Party, Commissioned).  Most open category decks wouldn't have more than that.  In spite of that, I lost 2 of my 4 games solely due to lack of LSs to take.  For details look here.

Possibly find some people who know how to properly shuffle, and if somebody wants to, they can bring their decks to the shuffle station.

Two bridge shuffles, Opponent cuts your deck, and then one to two more bridges. That should do it.

If you don't know how to bridge shuffle, take it to the shuffle station. 

Two bridge shuffles, Opponent cuts your deck, and then one to two more bridges. That should do it.

If you don't know how to bridge shuffle, take it to the shuffle station. 

Listen to some players weep as there cards get bridge shuffled