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4. It owuld force people to play defense knowing they woudl have to defend from the very beginning 

Or that if they get their SoG NJ super fast and have two stall blocks (Uzzah, TD), they will win.

Problems arise if you have an EC drought. Should we just sort every card into piles and take ALL luck out of the game? No.

If we pile everything, I'm drawing all my dominants piles first, then my Fortress (which is just TGT) and my heroes (all the TGT heroes) next.

I think we should do away with Lost Souls all together, and then everyone could just battle challenge endlessly. Winners can be determined - if at all - by a panel of judges, like in boxing or American Idol.

or American Idol.

[simon] That match was ABSOLUTELY AWEFUL. Worst performance of the night!

Let's face it, the majority of complaints come from people known to play speed or known to want to try to cause parity and fairness within the game structure.

 To those players of speed, I feel your complaints are completely unjustified. Speed as a strategy is inherently trying to shorten the game. Just because you failed because of elements out of your control does not mean we should change the rules. It means you should either accept, adapt, or change.

To those who like to made the game have more parity and fairness, your motives are good, but your applications are not. Your making the essential element of every single card game that has ever succeed go away. That's a horrible way to make the game fair. Sure, maybe it'd be fairer, but at the cost of ruining the essense of it to an unthinkable point.

Quote from: Janissary on July 13, 2009, 12:18:21 AM

All a consistant flow of lost souls does is shorten games while removing the random element of chance (providence) from the game in such a way that whoever draws SoG, NJ and can block 1-2 times first will win.

I don't understand this at all.  If I only draw 1 LS (from my LS stack) for every 6 cards, then my defense can hold up.  Even if you get the one on the opening draw, then I'll get 2 more draw 3's before my next one comes up.  That gives me time for my defense to set up.  By then, I'll probably have a site to put the LS in, or a defensive art to help out, etc.  I think having a slow, steady influx of LSs would actually make the game LESS of a race to SoG/NJ.

We both start with one soul on the table. We draw. I get a few heros,including a purple one and my Uzzah and an artifact. I get to go first. I RA with a hero. My opponent didn't get an EC, so I get a soul. He RAs. I use Uzzah. Next draw I get my Pentecost, Hur, and Reach to go with the purple hero I got first turn. I set aside my hero with Pentecost. My opponent RA's again. They win, I have no EC. 1-1. Next Turn, I draw 6, and a soul is added. I get a KoT and an ET in my draw. I RA with my ET and use Reach. I get SoG, and a soul goes to the table. It's the hopper, so this is now a RA. My opponent still got hoses by his first 11 cards; no EC. I get a soul. Next Turn he draws and one of his souls goes out. He RAs. I block with my KoT and the BTNs ability works to get me the win. I draw. I get NJ and AoC. I RA with ET. He blocks with a character that gives me initative. I win the soul. My opponent draws. He still can't fight my big FBTN KoT. He waits for his counters. I draw 3, setting a soul to come in. I play SoG and NJ and win 5-1. GG.


See what I mean? Same problems. It's the luck of the draw for a reason.

Quote

To those players of speed, I feel your complaints are completely unjustified. Speed as a strategy is inherently trying to shorten the game. Just because you failed because of elements out of your control does not mean we should change the rules. It means you should either accept, adapt, or change.

It's funny you said this as I'm one of "those" players. I didn't start this thread on my behalf for the most part, but for the very talented players (these players play type 2 as well as type 1 and are very balanced players not really defensive, not really offensive) I know that have suffered from this issue.

Yes, but the funny part is that most of the time these type of threads are started by those who play speed or sudo-speed the very talented players that you talk about (For the most part) understand that bad draws are part of the game and learn to accept it when it happens, also in Type 2 bad draws are minimized by the fact that you play to 7 and that O, D are balanced (at least IMO they are)


Now if they all want to post and yell at me thats cool, From what I've seen most of the complaining doesn't come from them.

Wouldn't it be simpler to just teach people how to shuffle?  90% of the games I've played where my opponents' souls didn't show were people that just kinda cut their deck once or twice, as opposed to a decent, honest shuffle.

Hey Daniel, I know how to fix your problem.

Step 1: Put down your Type-1 deck.
Step 2: Pick up Type-2 deck.
Step 3: Never again play Type-1.

That (and the fact that there are only ever been 2 other consistent T2 players in CA) is the reason that I switched to T2.  I like the whole "chance to make a comeback after a bad draw" thing.

I think it was Kirk that used to reset the game a couple times before playing for that exact reason.

Wow, this thread got big really quick.  Although I appreciate Daniel's concern, it does come from the perspective of "speed" player.  And even though I gravitate towards that style myself I think adding more Lost Souls would be a bad idea as it would give fast decks an even larger advantage.  The "randomness" of the draw is not determining who wins Nationals.  All you have to do it look at the top three placers from recent years in almost any category.  If you've ever played any of them you know that they are quality players capable of rising to the top.

I've played against people who don't draw souls until they're over half way through their deck.  Even so I think the current system of 7 LS per 56 doesn't need to be changed.  Sure, on occasion a game is decided by one player getting a "really bad draw" (no ECs, all their LS, etc).  That excuse is way over used though.  The problem usually comes down to poor deck design or less than optimal plays by the person who experienced the "bad draw".

There are plenty of ways to generate a Lost Soul to rescue if you're opponent isn't drawing any.  And we'll see even more getting play next year.  One in particular that I really love will also punish a person who plays little to no defense.

No matter how you change it, this is a CCG.  If you don't like the randomness of drawing cards from a deck, then you're probably playing the wrong kind of game.

I would like to see something along the lines of you have to win a battle challenge or side battle to bring a lost soul into play.  This would encourage more battles and larger decks and discourage speed decks.

That's so OP'd. Searching through a deck, getting to see the contents just because you won a BC. And on top of that, you get to pick which soul comes out.

No way.

That's so OP'd. Searching through a deck, getting to see the contents just because you won a BC. And on top of that, you get to pick which soul comes out.

No way.

I didn't imply that.  But then again I didn't imply how it would work at all.   

I think this idea would work the best: lost souls would be shuffled into a separate face down pile placed in the LoB.  When an opponent wins a battle challenge or side battle against you, the top lost soul is drawn and placed face up in the LoB.  Cards with SA's that search for LS would allow the player to search the lost soul pile and select one, shuffled on return.

The more I think about it, the more I like it.  Maybe a wrinkle to add to Type NW...

that would just double the game time, and pretty much force people to use offense heavy decks since they need to win twice as many battles. I don't really like that idea much either...