Author Topic: John (Promo) (Read 9401 times)

BubbleBoy · « **on:** May 18, 2009, 05:06:41 PM »

If I make a rescue attempt with John, can I choose to shuffle the deck that I look at if I want? I assumed you could, since it says you may look at a deck and return it unshuffled, meaning you may look at a deck and then you may return it unshuffled. So if you choose not to return it unshuffled, you have to shuffle it, right? However, Justin (Guardian) disagrees with me.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #1 on:** May 18, 2009, 05:10:37 PM »

Given how it's presently worded, I agree with you. I don't think that's what it's supposed to mean, but that's what it says.

TimMierz · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2009, 05:11:23 PM »

Traditionally, when multiple abilities are after a "may," each one can be chosen independently. So let's look at this:

"Player may look through any draw pile and return the cards unshuffled to their original location."

So our options are:
1) Look through a draw pile, and return it unshuffled.
2) Don't look through a draw pile, and don't return it unshuffled.
3) Don't look through a draw pile, and return it unshuffled.
4) Look through a draw pile, and don't return it unshuffled.

1 is the normal use. 2 is just declining to do anything. 3 doesn't make sense, since there's nothing to return. 4 will cause you to unnecessarily stall a game since you just look through it without end, and a judge will award the other person the win.

No option there is "look through a draw pile and return it shuffled."

SirNobody · « **Reply #3 on:** May 19, 2009, 12:02:09 AM »

Hey,

If John has two separate abilities then I would agree that you could look at a draw pile and then shuffle it. But I believe John has one ability that is poorly worded which results in it looking like it has two abilities. The phrase "and return the cards unshuffled" means "the default condition of shuffling a deck after you look at it doesn't apply to this ability." As such it modifies the ability rather than being a second ability.

(This is similar to Dungeon of Malchiah - "Take any Hero prisoner and place Hero in your opponent's Land of Bondage." - which does not have two abilities, one a capture ability and the other a place ability, but rather one ability, a capture ability, with a place phrase that modifies the ability and changes the destination of the captured character away from the default.)

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Scottie_ffgamer · « **Reply #4 on:** May 19, 2009, 12:24:08 AM »

I believe Bryon said something to the effect of "Whenever there is a may, it gives you as many choices as possible." This would seems to support what Tim was saying. I'll try to find Bryon's quote though....

Bryon · « **Reply #5 on:** May 19, 2009, 02:38:36 AM »

That quote doesn't really apply here. I agree with Tim. The "return without shuffling" just removes the default shuffle that usually accompanies a search. The irony is that "look through" is more like a reveal than a seach, and reveals don't require shuffling.

In short: you don't shuffle.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #6 on:** May 19, 2009, 06:55:51 AM »

Okay, but it still could do with a little rewording. $:-\$

Arch Angel · « **Reply #7 on:** May 19, 2009, 10:27:40 AM »

John's ability isn't a reveal though, right? As in, you don't get to show the other players at the table what cards are in the deck?

The Schaef · « **Reply #8 on:** May 19, 2009, 11:04:57 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on May 19, 2009, 06:55:51 AM

Okay, but it still could do with a little rewording. $:-\$

Why? What is the second special ability you think is allowed?

Bryon · « **Reply #9 on:** May 19, 2009, 11:28:28 AM »

It is a "Reveal"/"look at" ability.

"Reveal" defaults to all players. "Look at" defaults to yourself only.

The Schaef · « **Reply #10 on:** May 19, 2009, 12:24:26 PM »

That is the first ability. I'm curious as to the second ability that people are saying is an additional option.

SirNobody · « **Reply #11 on:** May 19, 2009, 01:12:20 PM »

Hey,

Schaef, the ability on John (Promo) has a compound verb joined together with the conjunction and, usually when that sentence structure appears in Redemption it indicates multiple abilities.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

The Schaef · « **Reply #12 on:** May 19, 2009, 01:21:15 PM »

Thank you. I understand sentence structure. Please tell me the ability.

sk · « **Reply #13 on:** May 19, 2009, 01:52:32 PM »

Player may
- look through any draw pile (look / don't look)
- return the cards unshuffled to their original location (shuffle / don't shuffle)

Bryon · « **Reply #14 on:** May 19, 2009, 01:57:22 PM »

But that is like saying
Player may
-take a hero prisoner
-put it in your land of bondage

Both of those phrases are just describing "capture." They are not separate abilities.

Same as John's ability describes a "look at" ability. It is all one ability.

The Schaef · « **Reply #15 on:** May 19, 2009, 02:04:14 PM »

Quote from: sk on May 19, 2009, 01:52:32 PM

- return the cards unshuffled to their original location (shuffle / don't shuffle)

Put the cards back is not an ability. If you look at someone's hand, you don't need to be told to put the cards back in their hand. The default condition is to return a revealed/looked card to its original location.

Shuffling is an ability. Not shuffling is not an ability. It's nothing. It clarifies only that you do not shuffle (which, since this is a look and not a search, is probably the default condition anyway).

This is just like how Prince of This World's second sentence is a clarifier. Or as Bryon said, many capture cards.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #16 on:** May 19, 2009, 02:21:34 PM »

Choosing to not draw 3 when playing Reach is nothing as well, but its still an option.

The Schaef · « **Reply #17 on:** May 19, 2009, 02:24:32 PM »

Draw 3 is an ability. Not draw is not an ability.

Example. Capture a Hero and do not draw a card.

Well, duh. You're already not drawing a card.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #18 on:** May 19, 2009, 02:29:53 PM »

If that card said "you may capture a hero and draw a card"... then "not drawing" would be an option, even though it is nothing.

I would argue that not shuffling IS an ability. It is an ability that allows you to break the standard rules of the game, just play playing the next enhancement lets you bypass initiative.

TimMierz · « **Reply #19 on:** May 19, 2009, 02:33:59 PM »

The standard rule about shuffling is:
"A deck is always reshuffled after it has been searched unless a card states otherwise"

What has been said several times is that "look at", like "reveal", is not a "search" ability, and therefore this default doesn't apply. John's second "ability" is just a clarification.

The Schaef · « **Reply #20 on:** May 19, 2009, 02:36:01 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on May 19, 2009, 02:29:53 PM

If that card said "you may capture a hero and draw a card"... then "not drawing" would be an option, even though it is nothing.

Draw a card is an ability. Do not draw a card is not an ability. You are not using the correct analogy, because my example is the same thing as the John card, and your example is changing it to something else.

Quote

I would argue that not shuffling IS an ability. It is an ability that allows you to break the standard rules of the game, just play playing the next enhancement lets you bypass initiative.

Not shuffling doesn't do anything. How are you breaking the rules by not doing something that you don't do anyway?

Playing the next Enhancement IS AN ABILITY. You get to PLAY A CARD. Your examples are doing the same thing over and over again, using ACTIONS that you have the option to NOT take, and trying to say that's the same thing as a sentence that says DON'T do something. And did you even read my comparison to Prince of This World? Or Bryon's reference to capture cards?

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #21 on:** May 19, 2009, 02:40:41 PM »

What is a "look at" ability? The REG defines search as only the searcher seeing the cards and reveal as everyone seeing the cards. Nothing specifies that a card has to be selected during a search.

The Schaef · « **Reply #22 on:** May 19, 2009, 02:44:48 PM »

Look-at is a one-person reveal. Bryon already explained this.

Bryon · « **Reply #23 on:** May 19, 2009, 02:46:14 PM »

Right. "Look at" and "Reveal" are abilities with the same default: don't shuffle.

If any of these abilities are currently grouped with "Search" in the REG, that will be changed soon.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #24 on:** May 19, 2009, 02:47:41 PM »

"Search, Reveal, and Exchange" is one heading in the REG. I don't see "Look at" anywhere.

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Author Topic: John (Promo) (Read 9401 times)

Scottie_ffgamer

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

The Schaef