Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: sepjazzwarrior on November 10, 2010, 09:44:55 AM
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1. I make a RA with Job with dust and ashes in my territory and I am justice active, Job gets discarded by the evil character, do I get to discartd the evil character after the turn?
I am Justice
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 5 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If an Evil Character discards your Hero this battle, you may discard that Evil Character at the end of the turn. Limit two discards per game. •
Dust and Ashes (Di)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When you play this card, search discard pile for Job. If your Job is harmed or defeated by an opponent, you may place him here instead. Each upkeep, return contents to hand. Cannot be negated.
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No because you didn't fulfill the discard part. It was insteaded which means it didn't happen. you don't get the reward when the cost was insteaded.
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Since DaA is already in your territory, no. DaA whisks Job away before he is discarded, so IaJ wouldn't work.
If, however, you played DaA after Job was defeated, you could discard that EC with IaJ and then get Job back via DaA.
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Just play ark and it's tons better...
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Actually I would rule you cannot discard Job, period. Kinda like enoch. look at Jobs ability:
Job (Pi)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 6 / 12 • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect Job from discard and capture abilities. • Identifiers: OT Male Human • Verse: Job 2:3 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)
We have 3 elders confirming and no dissension here (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=23949.0). Job does not work with I am Justice.
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Actually I would rule you cannot discard Job, period. Kinda like enoch. look at Jobs ability:
Job (Pi)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 6 / 12 • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect Job from discard and capture abilities. • Identifiers: OT Male Human • Verse: Job 2:3 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)
We have 3 elders confirming and no dissension here (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=23949.0). Job does not work with I am Justice.
You could if D&A wasn't out and Job's ability got negated...
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Wait, I have a question then.
I just realized, if Job and Enoch can be protected from discard by numbers.... then why have I been told that Protection of Angels and Birth Foretold do not protect from discard by numbers?
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Wait, I have a question then.
I just realized, if Job and Enoch can be protected from discard by numbers.... then why have I been told that Protection of Angels and Birth Foretold do not protect from discard by numbers?
I'm not sure who told you that...I've always assumed that both BF and PoA protect from discard by numbers as well...
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Because Enoch and Job are protected from Discard, Including game rule that comes from losing by the numbers. Protection of angels protects from evil cards, not game rules. Emphasis mine on the following:
Protection of Angels (Pi)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 2 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Interrupt the battle and protect all Heroes in play and set aside areas from evil cards until end of turn. • Play As: Interrupt the battle and protect all Heroes in play and set aside areas from evil special abilities until end of turn. • Identifiers: OT, Involves Music • Verse: Psalms 91:11 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Common)
Enoch (Pa)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: White • Ability: 7 / 8 • Class: None • Special Ability: Enoch may be removed from the game, but is prevented from being discarded. • Errata: Protect Enoch from discard. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Prophet • Verse: Genesis 5:23-24 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)
Job (Pi)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 6 / 12 • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect Job from discard and capture abilities. • Identifiers: OT Male Human • Verse: Job 2:3 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)
At least that was the outcome of a large post long ago. Let me find it.
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But, heres the REG section on protect:
Protect allows cards to be unaffected by specified special abilities and is related to cards that specify “cannot be” or “may not be” (see Cannot be in the glossary). Protected cards cannot be targeted for harm. Cards that protect give an ability like immune to the cards they protect (see Immune).
Basically, Protect = cannot be targeted by/for X if that quote is accurate.
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Hrmm the more I dig into this the less sure I am of my conclusion. We never really got this resolved. Time to Necro. :maul:
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Why necropost, just keep the conversation in a single thread so things are less confusing.
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bump
can job be discarded by numbers?
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bump
can job be discarded by numbers?
Yes, he can but Job could be saved by D&A because that meets the definition of defeated (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/gloss_defeat.htm).
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What are you, like 0-3? Job is protected from Discard. This includes by the numbers.
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bump
can job be discarded by numbers?
Yes, he can but Job could be saved by D&A because that meets the definition of defeated (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/gloss_defeat.htm).
Then what happened to this discussion? http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=23949.0 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=23949.0)
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I think the question is:
A.) Job is protected from discard. Job is also protected from capture abilities
OR
B.) Job is protected from discard abilities. Job is also protected from capture abilities
Given:
Yes, he can but Job could be saved by D&A because that meets the definition of defeated (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/gloss_defeat.htm).
I'd say it's B, that Job is only protected from discard abilities (CM, Coliseum Lions, etc.)
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I think the question is:
A.) Job is protected from discard. Job is also protected from capture abilities
OR
B.) Job is protected from discard abilities. Job is also protected from capture abilities
Both myself and the "other Prof" agree that the answer is A based on the wording of another card from the same set. The ruling was made here. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=23949.msg377030#msg377030)
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This doesn't make much sense. If protect has been ruled to only extend to abilities (See Crown of Thorns+Thaddeus thread) then Job can be killed btn.
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"Discard" refers to discard abilities or discard by losing the battle by the numbers. It is a completely different situation due to different wordings.
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This doesn't make much sense. If protect has been ruled to only extend to abilities (See Crown of Thorns+Thaddeus thread) then Job can be killed btn.
I agree that this is inconsistent, which was why I asked my question in the other thread.
Both myself and the "other Prof" agree that the answer is A based on the wording of another card from the same set. The ruling was made here. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=23949.msg377030#msg377030)
That ruling may need to be revisited under the current circumstances. I would argue that Abiathar's SA's use of the word "abilities" was superfluous. We need to decide once and for all whether or not the "protect" special ability only affects special abilities.
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The discard is a modifier to the protect. He isn't "protected" he is "protected from discard" which modifies the protection to mean protected from any kind of discard.
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The discard is a modifier to the protect. He isn't "protected" he is "protected from discard" which modifies the protection to mean protected from any kind of discard.
I understand what you are saying. I simply disagree. ;D
I think that "Protect" should have a single REG entry that defines it as "Protect from Special Abilities." I just feel that it would be easier to rule for a host.
However, if I am wrong, then that is fine. I just want complete clarity so that I am a well-prepared judge for the 2012 Nationals here in Orlando. ;)
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Knoxville or Orlando -either way im there :)
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Knoxville or Orlando -either way im there :)
Frankly, TN is better established than Orlando. Walt Disney just taught me to "make my dreams come true." I do have Pixie Dust on my side. :o
BTW, did I mention that I can get people into Disney for free? ;)
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BTW, did I mention that I can get people into Disney for free? ;)
For the last time, I'm not dressing up as Donald Duck.
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BTW, did I mention that I can get people into Disney for free? ;)
For the last time, I'm not dressing up as Donald Duck.
Due to recent lawsuits, there is an opening with the Duck. The only other chance you have is to dress up like Rapunzel.
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I think that "Protect" should have a single REG entry that defines it as "Protect from Special Abilities."
If the REG did get such a limited definition of "Protect", then you are correct that this ruling would have to change. However, since there is no such definition limiting the word "Protect" to ONLY refer to special abilities, the ruling is still currently the logical one.
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Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 6 / 12 • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect Job from discard and capture abilities. • Identifiers: OT Male Human • Verse: Job 2:3
It's a well established fact that "abilities" is often used as short hand for "special abilities" for card wording, as is the case with Job's SA. Abilities can also refer to the numbers */* on a character but in this case that wouldn't make sense with "capture abilities" since the abilities on a character don't capture.
That being said I see Job's SA as reading that he's protected from special abilities that would discard or capture him.
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Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 6 / 12 • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect Job from discard and capture abilities. • Identifiers: OT Male Human • Verse: Job 2:3
It's a well established fact that "abilities" is often used as short hand for "special abilities" for card wording, as is the case with Job's SA. Abilities can also refer to the numbers */* on a character but in this case that wouldn't make sense with "capture abilities" since the abilities on a character don't capture.
That being said I see Job's SA as reading that he's protected from special abilities that would discard or capture him.
Compare job to abiathar. Both were released in the same set.
Abiathar says abilities twice.
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Compare job to abiathar. Both were released in the same set.
Abiathar says abilities twice.
A case could be made both ways using that logic. There are other cards in that set that use the same method as Job on their special abilities, like Judas and Ahab's Armor. But I don't think that comparing one card to others in the set is all that relevant compared to just reading the card for what it says.
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Another comparison:
Enoch (Pa)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: White • Ability: 7 / 8 • Class: None • Special Ability: Enoch may be removed from the game, but is prevented from being discarded. • Errata: Protect Enoch from discard. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Prophet • Verse: Genesis 5:23-24 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)
Enoch has always returned to territory instead of being discarded.
If Job is protected from discard abilities, it would be best to add that in, or else it should be ruled the same way as Enoch as its worded.
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Gabe, the question here is whether "Protected from Discard and Capture Abilities" should group Discard and Capture together, or Capture and Abilities together. Because of the way English works, it could go either way. The reason it's the latter rather than the former is that other cards from the same set are similarly worded, but specify "Discard Abilities and capture Abilities," so the logical conclusion is that, with the different wording, he is Protected from Discard like Enoch and Simeon are.
To YMT, the default on Protect is protecting from SA's, but sometimes specific wording on a Protect will allow it to protect from other things, just like the default for Capture is "put in your Land of Bondage and treat as a Lost Soul," but the specific wording on some Captures has you put it in your opponent's LoB instead.
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The discard is a modifier to the protect. He isn't "protected" he is "protected from discard" which modifies the protection to mean protected from any kind of discard.
Couldn't thaddeus' protect from 'EC' be considered a modifier?
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To YMT, the default on Protect is protecting from SA's, but sometimes specific wording on a Protect will allow it to protect from other things, just like the default for Capture is "put in your Land of Bondage and treat as a Lost Soul," but the specific wording on some Captures has you put it in your opponent's LoB instead.
I understand what you are saying, and I do not disagree.
I just think that being protected from SAs is more logical than just a blanket protection from "whatever."
Player 1: Can I look at the cards in your territory for a second?
Player 2: You can look at every one except this one, because he's protected. ;)
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It's not a blanket protection from whatever. It's a protection from SA's unless otherwise specified, just like Capture puts it in your LoB unless otherwise specified, Discard only targets cards in play unless otherwise specified, etc.
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Again, I do not disagree. I was talking about the idea that "Protect from discard" could not mean anything other than "Protect from discard abilities."
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Theoretically there should be a good reason to change the rules like that and overturn long-standing combos like zero-defense blockers. Can you provide one?
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Due to elder disagreement in this thread, this will get discussed on the other side of the forum, and I'll try to return with a conclusive answer :)
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thank u sirs
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I wouldn't read too much into the fact the another card in the Priests set used the word "abilities" twice and Job only used it one. My intention on Job is that he is protected from discard abilities and capture abilities. It would have been better if we reversed the order since capture only works as a special ability. Job should read that he is protected from capture and discard abilities. In any case, I don't see him protected from discard if he loses the battle by the numbers.