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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: sepjazzwarrior on September 08, 2010, 09:28:55 AM

Title: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on September 08, 2010, 09:28:55 AM
I have Dust and Ashes out and Job is set-aside and discarded by Darius Decree, does he go to Dust and Ashes? What if he was discarded from my hand or deck?

Dust and Ashes: When you play this card, search discard pile for Job. If your Job is harmed or defeated by an opponent, you may place him here instead. Each upkeep, return contents to hand. Cannot be negated.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on September 08, 2010, 09:46:42 AM
I've been told yes, based on the same logic that applies with I am Holy + Chamber of Angels.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Professoralstad on September 08, 2010, 10:42:45 AM
I have Dust and Ashes out and Job is set-aside and discarded by Darius Decree, does he go to Dust and Ashes? What if he was discarded from my hand or deck?

Dust and Ashes: When you play this card, search discard pile for Job. If your Job is harmed or defeated by an opponent, you may place him here instead. Each upkeep, return contents to hand. Cannot be negated.

Yes. Your Job is your Job no matter where he is.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Prof Underwood on September 08, 2010, 10:48:38 AM
Yes. Your Job is your Job no matter where he is.
Unless your job gets outsourced to India, in which case it is now Ravi's job :)
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on September 08, 2010, 10:58:34 AM
I lol'd.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: MrMiYoda on November 08, 2010, 03:48:20 PM
I have revisited this topic.

With Dust and Ashes in play, do we mean to say that Job can never be taken out of the game nor defeated by means other negating his SA, unless Dust and Ashes is discarded?  Moreover, if Dust and Ashes is discarded while Job is in it, does Job get discarded since the targeted card for discard is Dust and Ashes and not him?

Thinktank?
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Professoralstad on November 08, 2010, 04:03:38 PM
I have revisited this topic.

With Dust and Ashes in play, do we mean to say that Job can never be taken out of the game nor defeated by means other negating his SA, unless Dust and Ashes is discarded?  Moreover, if Dust and Ashes is discarded while Job is in it, does Job get discarded since the targeted card for discard is Dust and Ashes and not him?

Thinktank?

If D&A is in active (it's in set-aside area, not in play) Job can be defeated, but no matter what happens to him, as long as you control and own him, and your opponent is the one who affects him, he will always be able to go back to D&A.

Currently, there is only one way to get rid of D&A, and that is Set Fire. With Set Fire, you get to choose which OT Fortress/Site to discard, and you also get to choose in what order events occurring in your upkeep phase occur. Thus, you can return Job to your hand before discarding D&A. If you for some reason don't want to, then Job would be discarded.

If in the future another card can discard D&A, then Job would follow it to the discard if he was in it when it happened.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Warrior_Monk on November 08, 2010, 04:05:47 PM
A good Gold Shield would effectively do it as well.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Master KChief on November 08, 2010, 04:16:11 PM
wouldnt that be harm?
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Warrior_Monk on November 08, 2010, 04:23:11 PM
wouldnt that be harm?
Only if it's on an evil character.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on November 08, 2010, 04:30:34 PM
I think its harm.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Warrior_Monk on November 08, 2010, 04:36:28 PM
If it's harm, then it can't carry over it's ability when converted. It does, so it must not be harm.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Master KChief on November 08, 2010, 04:53:24 PM
ah, missed the 'good'.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: The Guardian on November 08, 2010, 04:59:51 PM
How would that help? He gets reset when he returns to hand...
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Master KChief on November 08, 2010, 05:08:30 PM
gold shield, chump block with red dragon?
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on November 08, 2010, 05:15:03 PM
Harm is something affecting you from a different alignment. Gold Shield is evil. Job is good. It is affecting him.

If converting him to black is harmful but making him white isn't, you'll hear from my lawyer.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Warrior_Monk on November 08, 2010, 05:16:45 PM
A good Gold Shield would effectively do it as well.

gold shield, chump block with red dragon?
exactly.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Professoralstad on November 08, 2010, 09:43:42 PM
According to the REG:

Defeat

Defeat is caused when a character’s toughness is less than or equal to an opposing character’s strength. A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle. A Hero(es) is defeated when the Hero(es) in battle are discarded, repelled or otherwise fails to make a successful rescue such as in a stalemate. The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded, ignored or otherwise fails to stop the Hero from making a successful rescue such as in a mutual destruction by numbers.

So if you block my gold Job (converted by Gold Shield) with Red Dragon, it'll be a stalemate, then Job is defeated, goes to D&A, goes to my hand, and comes back as blue Job. So Gold Shield only stalls him for one extra turn.

Probably the best way to get rid of Job is to band to him, then during the battle, negate his ability and capture/discard him. While he is under your control, your opponent's D&A can't save him. It's not exactly easy, but it can be accomplished by using Gathering on The Strong Angel or Captain, banding to Job, then using CM, Writ, or Charms. Obviously, a good Job deck has ways to get around that, but that's pretty much your only option when it comes to getting rid of him permanently.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: fyero on November 08, 2010, 10:01:55 PM
not if your opponent does anything to harm, i would think it would only be if u used like wrath of satan then job would be discarderd? additionally can u choose to "play" dust and ashes at any tiime as to search your discard for job after dust and ashes has already been out a turn
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Professoralstad on November 08, 2010, 11:10:05 PM
not if your opponent does anything to harm, i would think it would only be if u used like wrath of satan then job would be discarderd? additionally can u choose to "play" dust and ashes at any tiime as to search your discard for job after dust and ashes has already been out a turn

If you use Wrath of Satan, your Job would be discarded (assuming he wasn't somehow otherwise protected) since D&A only saves him from your opponents. You can only search d/c pile once for Job, and that is when you first play D&A, as that part of the ability is a separate, instant ability.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Minister Polarius on November 09, 2010, 12:18:11 AM
If you manage to get Persian Presidents into battle while Job is recovering in DNA, DNA won't be able to save him. DD will also Discard him from DNA and DNA won't be able to get him back.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Professoralstad on November 09, 2010, 12:44:34 AM
If you manage to get Persian Presidents into battle while Job is recovering in DNA, DNA won't be able to save him. DD will also Discard him from DNA and DNA won't be able to get him back.

I'm fairly certain that if Job is affected while he is in D&A, you would just place him back in it (just like if you use DD against Angels in Chamber). That's how I would rule it.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Minister Polarius on November 09, 2010, 11:10:21 AM
Nope. Job isn't in play when he's in DNA, so DNA doesn't target him. DD is also a good way to kill Angels if they rely on Chamber and no CoF.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on November 09, 2010, 11:22:24 AM
Then chamber and IaH really doesn't work, because the angels you discard are in your hand, not in play.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Professoralstad on November 09, 2010, 11:27:22 AM
Then chamber and IaH really doesn't work, because the angels you discard are in your hand, not in play.

Right. I think when a card says "your X" it refers to any X no matter where it is.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: STAMP on November 09, 2010, 11:30:40 AM
Polarius is correct.

Lambo, ProfA, you are confusing the targeting in your example with DNA's targeting.  They are not the same.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Professoralstad on November 09, 2010, 11:32:29 AM
Polarius is correct.

Lambo, ProfA, you are confusing the targeting in your example with DNA's targeting.  They are not the same.

How not? Chamber says: "When your Angel is discarded..." D&A says: "When your Job is harmed or defeated..." I see no difference.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on November 09, 2010, 11:34:16 AM
Set this fortress aside. If holder's angel is being discarded, place it here instead. After two turns, return Hero to the top of your draw pile.

When you play this card, search discard pile for Job. If your Job is harmed or defeated by an opponent, you may place him here instead. Each upkeep, return contents to hand. Cannot be negated.


If Holders angel...
If your Job...


Holder and Your are exchangeable in this situation, I see zero difference between Chamber and D&A. What exactly is not the same?

*instaposted*
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Minister Polarius on November 09, 2010, 12:24:34 PM
Being Discarded, Discarded, was Discarded all mean the same thing, so Chamber is able to target cards in the Discard Pile. DNA has no loophole wording to allow it to target cards not in play.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on November 09, 2010, 12:28:09 PM
So what exactly is your stand on Chamber of Angels and DD? You seem to contradict yourself:

Being Discarded, Discarded, was Discarded all mean the same thing, so Chamber is able to target cards in the Discard Pile. DNA has no loophole wording to allow it to target cards not in play.

Nope. Job isn't in play when he's in DNA, so DNA doesn't target him. DD is also a good way to kill Angels if they rely on Chamber and no CoF.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Minister Polarius on November 09, 2010, 12:29:08 PM
Yeah, I redact the statement about DD and Chamber.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on November 09, 2010, 12:32:47 PM
So... wouldn't "If your Job is harmed" also translate to "Being harmed", " Harmed", and "Was Harmed"?

If so, D&A should be triggered by a discard just as CoA is triggered by a discard.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Minister Polarius on November 09, 2010, 01:23:36 PM
No, it wouldn't.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on November 09, 2010, 01:28:28 PM
.... why?

Please explain why "Is being discarded" gets magical loopholes, while "Is Harmed" does not.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Minister Polarius on November 09, 2010, 01:30:02 PM
It's just a special rule about the various verbiage of "discard." There is no such special rule for "harm."
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on November 09, 2010, 01:35:42 PM
Discard is typically included in harm.

Inconsistent. Plz fix.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: browarod on November 09, 2010, 01:56:43 PM
It's just a special rule about the various verbiage of "discard." There is no such special rule for "harm."
You seem to be obsessed with this idea of "special rules" for things that most people have never heard of. First Ignore/CBIg, now discard, what's next? And where do you come up with these anyway?
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on November 09, 2010, 02:20:44 PM
By the way, you dun goofed.

Being Discarded, Discarded, was Discarded all mean the same thing, so Chamber is able to target cards in the Discard Pile. DNA has no loophole wording to allow it to target cards not in play.
Quote from: The REG
There is no distinction between “instantly discarded”, “being discarded”, and “about to be discarded.”

"Was Discarded" is not there, and is quite different from all of the others listed.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: browarod on November 09, 2010, 02:24:54 PM
^I agree. "Was discarded" implies that the ability becomes active after the discard took place. The only thing that includes/affects "was discarded" status, that I know of, are heal abilities.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Prof Underwood on November 09, 2010, 02:27:07 PM
I think when a card says "your X" it refers to any X no matter where it is.
I'm not sure either way on this one.  I'll bring it up on the other side.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Korunks on November 09, 2010, 03:03:28 PM
How about we codify all these "special rules" in one place so us mere tournament host's actually have a chance to know what we are talking about?  Maybe we could call it the Redemption Exegetical Guide or something  ::) ;)
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: The Guardian on November 09, 2010, 03:30:50 PM
It's just a special rule about the various verbiage of "discard." There is no such special rule for "harm."

Quote from: The REG
There is no distinction between “instantly discarded”, “being discarded”, and “about to be discarded.”

How about we codify all these "special rules" in one place so us mere tournament host's actually have a chance to know what we are talking about?  Maybe we could call it the Redemption Exegetical Guide or something  ::) ;)

Oh look we did... ::)
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on November 09, 2010, 03:36:05 PM
Yeah... that quote doesn't quite explain WHY discard gets special loopholes in this situation.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Minister Polarius on November 09, 2010, 03:38:52 PM
I think when a card says "your X" it refers to any X no matter where it is.
I'm not sure either way on this one.  I'll bring it up on the other side.
Mission accomplished.
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Warrior_Monk on November 09, 2010, 03:45:20 PM
I think when a card says "your X" it refers to any X no matter where it is.
I'm not sure either way on this one.  I'll bring it up on the other side.
Mission accomplished.
If they ever come up with a decision...
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Korunks on November 09, 2010, 05:11:09 PM
It's just a special rule about the various verbiage of "discard." There is no such special rule for "harm."

Quote from: The REG
There is no distinction between “instantly discarded”, “being discarded”, and “about to be discarded.”

How about we codify all these "special rules" in one place so us mere tournament host's actually have a chance to know what we are talking about?  Maybe we could call it the Redemption Exegetical Guide or something  ::) ;)

Oh look we did... ::)


Good, now how about one with "special rules" from at least the last set?  :)
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: STAMP on November 09, 2010, 05:28:14 PM
I think when a card says "your X" it refers to any X no matter where it is.
I'm not sure either way on this one.  I'll bring it up on the other side.

While you are at it here (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24305.0) is another one to toss over to that side of the fence. 
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Prof Underwood on November 09, 2010, 10:29:43 PM
While you are at it here (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24305.0) is another one to toss over to that side of the fence. 
I saw that thread, but I don't really get what you guys are even talking about.  Therefore, I'll let someone else bring that one up over there :)
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: adotson85 on January 15, 2011, 01:37:09 AM
I think when a card says "your X" it refers to any X no matter where it is.
I'm not sure either way on this one.  I'll bring it up on the other side.

Was this ever resolved?

Question being that if Job is in D&A and is discarded with darius decree does he go back to D&A or discard?
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Minister Polarius on January 15, 2011, 01:48:05 AM
Seems pretty cut and dried to me. DNA does not specify "in play or set-aside" so a DD on Job in DNA will Discard Job (or Persian Presidents will successfully capture, etc). Unless there is a rule that any reference to "your X" means "your X in any location," in which case the can of worms is open and I look forward to the next few weeks of breaking stuff B)
Title: Re: Job and Dust and Ashes
Post by: Prof Underwood on January 15, 2011, 09:25:05 PM
I'm not sure either way on this one.  I'll bring it up on the other side.
Was this ever resolved?
Yes, the new ruling can be found here. (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=25056.0)
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