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Author Topic: Joab and Optional Triggers  (Read 1357 times)

TheHobbit13

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Joab and Optional Triggers
« on: July 22, 2017, 05:09:59 PM »
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First I am wondering when "After battle" is, is it a part of battle resolution? Or after battle resolution?

From the REG:
"Optional triggered abilities will be
designated with a “may” or similar wording, while mandatory abilities simply describe the
outcome without giving a choice. Optional triggered abilities may only be activated while
the card it is on is controlled by the holder and is either in play or set aside area. "

Joab is an optional trigger ability so he can't dc a WC EC if he is removed by a special ability? What about if the battle is mutual destruction, is he gone before "after the battle" trigger goes off?

Also does Habakkuk says "after this battle" does that function differently than "after battle"?
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Joab and Optional Triggers
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2017, 05:26:29 PM »
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Quote
Joab is an optional trigger ability so he can't dc a WC EC if he is removed by a special ability?

I believe that is correct.

Quote
What about if the battle is mutual destruction, is he gone before "after the battle" trigger goes off?

According to the steps of battle resolution, the ability would work because the ability resolves in the same step as Joab being discarded (step 3).

Quote
Also does Habakkuk says "after this battle" does that function differently than "after battle"?

I don't believe so. If Habakkuk or Joab were in a side battle, their abilities would trigger during the battle resolution of that side battle.
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Fortress Alstad
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Joab and Optional Triggers
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2017, 08:05:46 PM »
+1
Ok what about if a hero has Christ's Triumph on it in battle? The battle goes to battle resolution but this time the optional trigger is a failed rescue attempt. Does it trigger while the hero dies? Or just fizzles? In the case that it triggers while the hero is discarded can that hero be first healed and used again for the battle if its generic?
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Joab and Optional Triggers
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2017, 08:53:47 PM »
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Quote from: REG
Battle Resolution
As is described in Battle Resolution in the rulebook, there are four outcomes to a battle:
● Evil Character wins
● Hero wins
● Mutual destruction
● Stalemate

However, beyond the outcome of the battle you must also determine the outcomes of the
battle challenge or rescue attempt. Here is the order to follow:
1. Determine the outcome of the battle (Evil Character wins, Heroes wins, mutual
destruction, or stalemate).
2. Determine success or failure of the rescue attempt or battle challenge. If the battle
was a battle challenge, then success or failure of a battle challenge has only one
condition, the battle outcome in step 1. If Hero wins and has (or has gained) access to
a Lost Soul, it’s a successful rescue. If Hero loses battle or loses access to opponent’s
Lost Souls, then the rescue fails.
3. Resolve end-of-battle special ability based on the conditions established in Steps 1
and 2. All unaffected cards are treated under normal gameplay rules (such as discard,
return to territory, Land of Redemption, etc).

Since the determination of a failed rescue attempt happens in step 2 then Christ's Triumph would trigger before the Hero is discarded (step 3). You could discard CT, then heal the Hero (as a part of step 3) and then if that Hero was generic you could rescue with that Hero again.
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Fortress Alstad
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Joab and Optional Triggers
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2017, 09:44:06 PM »
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According to the REG section you quoted the discard happens in 1 and the trigger for CT happens in 2.  Because when you determine the outcome of the battle as, say, Evil character wins and the hero is discarded. That's what Evil character wins means. Otherwise you can't say that CT is triggered in 2 because it is only hypothetically triggered, and is therefore actually triggered in 3 when everything happens and the character is in the discard pile. But to me, All 3 is saying is that you resolve the triggers from 1 and 2 then. Idk 3 is not very clear to me, it doesn't wrap up the battle phase by carrying out what has been determined in 1. In which case CT is no longer able to be triggered because it is an optional trigger that is no longer in play.

But alternatively if Christ Triumph is triggered why do you get to heal your hero before Christ Triumph tries to activate from the discard pile? I don't see why healing would insert itself between the trigger in 2 and activation of the trigger following 3. And healing is not a trigger so it's not like you would get to choose which comes first. When you are discarded you get to heal I get that, but after 3 apparently the effect of the trigger is trying to take place as well place.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 09:46:50 PM by TheHobbit »
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Joab and Optional Triggers
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2017, 10:04:08 PM »
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Quote from: Step 3
All unaffected cards are treated under normal gameplay rules (such as discard,
return to territory, Land of Redemption, etc).

Step 3 is where characters are discarded/return to territory, enhancements are discarded and the LS is handed over (or something like Raider's Camp is triggered).
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Fortress Alstad
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kariusvega

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Re: Joab and Optional Triggers
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2017, 10:12:13 PM »
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oh wow so you have to dc christ's triumph in battle before healing to determine you are making a new rescue after it fails?

i was thinking you could heal the hero with ct, determine the rescue failed with the hero in territory, then dc ct
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Joab and Optional Triggers
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2017, 10:20:20 PM »
+1
I'm not saying I'm 100% certain, but that's how I interpret it based on the entry for battle resolution.
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Fortress Alstad
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Joab and Optional Triggers
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2017, 11:13:22 PM »
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Quote from: The Guardian on July 22, 2017, 10:04:08 PM
Quote from: Step 3
All unaffected cards are treated under normal gameplay rules (such as discard,
return to territory, Land of Redemption, etc).

Step 3 is where characters are discarded/return to territory, enhancements are discarded and the LS is handed over (or something like Raider's Camp is triggered).

I am curious why it just doesn't come out and say that or why it says normal game play rules... isn't the reg establishing game play rules?  but that's beside the point. But why are characters determined to be discarded in 1 and actually discarded in 3 but when you determine if the rescue attempt is a success for failure that actually happens in 2? The language is the same in 1 and 2. Assuming CT is triggered in 2 why does it not take effect in 2? If it has to progress through all the phases to take effect then it follows that CT is in the discard pile when the trigger tries to take effect, and then cannot because it is optional. Again why do you get to heal the character before the trigger takes effect. Don't triggers have priority over option abilities?

I'm not saying I'm 100% certain, but that's how I interpret it based on the entry for battle resolution.

So you're saying that you have to discard Christ's triumph in 2? I mean where else would you discard it, in 3 it's in the discard pile. So you are activating have of the effect of the trigger in 2 then the other half somehow has to wait on until 3 to take effect, and conveniently,you can choose to activate this effect after you heal the hero you want to make the next rescue with?  That doesn't make sense to me lol
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 11:15:58 PM by TheHobbit »
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Joab and Optional Triggers
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2017, 09:18:34 AM »
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I read in a recent thread with the same question about Joab and Two Witnesses, and the answer I received was that regardless of what happens to them (defeated or not), so long as his ability wasn't negated, then he could DC a WC character or all ECs that blocked.  The difference between them and Silly Women is that SW has to be in play in order for it to capture itself to your opponent's LoB. 

This whole "after battle" ability really needs a final determination as to how exactly it works its own clarification in the REG as these questions keep coming up on the forum about this ability.
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Adevine

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Re: Joab and Optional Triggers
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2017, 09:30:32 AM »
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Quote from: Watchman492 on July 23, 2017, 09:18:34 AM
I read in a recent thread with the same question about Joab and Two Witnesses, and the answer I received was that regardless of what happens to them (defeated or not), so long as his ability wasn't negated, then he could DC a WC character or all ECs that blocked.  The difference between them and Silly Women is that SW has to be in play in order for it to capture itself to your opponent's LoB. 

This whole "after battle" ability really needs a final determination as to how exactly it works its own clarification in the REG as these questions keep coming up on the forum about this ability.

Yeah,. I ran into an after battle" problem with me and my son, and I was not sure when it applied.  If i am going to run a play group, I need to nail these things down. :)
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