Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Jerusalem Tower SA: no opponent may remove a card from holder's draw pile

1. If J Tower is active and opponent uses revealer LS or Wash basin (reveal the bottom x cards of opponents deck etc)  can they still reveal the cards of the player with the J tower? 

 

2.  If Obadiah's Cave (part of SA: put your green brigade prophets being removed from the game here instead)  is in play and that player's green prophet hero is removed from the game from their discard pile , does the hero go to the cave?

Not sure about revealer but Wash Basin is stopped by Jerusalem Tower and caves will instead green prophets being removed from DC pile.

Jerusalem Tower only stops cards from being removed/discarded from your deck. The cards can still be searched, revealed and shuffled.

I agree. They would be revealed and could be placed under the deck (or on top in case of Wash basin) but any LSs revealed by Revealer, Fisher's of men, or Gideon's call would stay with the rest rather than going to LoB.

Yes, cards can still be manipulated within the deck as long as they remain in the deck.

I believe the answer is no because a draw ability isn't considered to be removing a card from the deck. But I wouldn't be shocked if I was wrong.

I'd like to revisit this because I was wondering if Mayhem or TEC Philip's Daughters, or any other card that causes a player with JT to have to draw a card due to an opponent's SA be considered a removal from the deck.

The rule had always been that draws were still allowed through Jerusalem Tower. However, with the new REG, we need to be sure that has not changed.

This is what the REG says under "Draw:"

Clarifications
● When multiple cards are drawn they are drawn as a single action not as a separate action for each card drawn.
● A card which causes opponents to draw is still a "draw ability used" by its controller.
● A mandatory draw, or an optional draw the player chooses to complete, is still a "draw ability used" by that
player, even if 0 cards are drawn or if the deck is empty

I could see the bolded line being interpreted as the holder of Mayhem doing the draw, which JT would stop. However, I doubt that is what the line was supposed to mean. We'll have to wait for Elder input. 

I believe the argument that JT didn't stop draw because you were the one drawing the card even if it was caused by the opponent's ability. This seemed to be off to me, though, because it seems to contradict the WoP/Goliath ruling.

What is WoP and what is the WoP/Goliath ruling?

WoP = Wall of Protection

The WoP/Goliath ruling is that (the attacker's) WoP stops them from replacing the hero(es) withdrawn by Goliath, since Goliath is an opponent's card that's bringing the heroes into battle.

I remeber that was the biggest joke in our play group, whenever someone would be facing a philistine deck, they would always say, "good thing i got my wall of protection" 

Yes, Jerusalem Tower stops forced drawing. Which is a real bummer for Jerusalem Tower, since Mayhem is so prevalent. There was a time when it was given a sort of "expemtion" to forced drawing, so as to not make JT unplayable, but with plenty of other options for deck protection, and the fact that rules like that produce inconsistencies and other bad effects, it was done away with. It is almost always better to use other ways to protect your deck, most of which protect your hand and deck simultaneously (so Mayhem can neither shuffle your hand nor force you to draw). The ruling does help if your opponent is trying to force you to draw to trigger Abom or Gifts of the Magi, so while it hurts JT, it also helps as a counter to those much more popular cards.

A follow-up question to this. If my opponent had JT in play, and I play Mayhem, would my opponent's hand be shuffled but no cards drawnmay be drawn, or would no shuffle occur based upon Mayhem's condition:

"Each player must shuffle hand into deck TO draw six"

It seems to me, based upon the wording, that in order for the shuffle to happen six cards must be drawn, even though the shuffle comes first chronologically.  The card doesn't say "shuffle...AND THEN draw..." or "shuffle...and draw..."  If the wording was one of those then I could see the shuffle occurring. Is my logic making any sense?

You have it backwards - the draw is dependent on the shuffle, not vice versa.  You can pay the cost without gaining the benefit, but you can't gain the benefit without paying the cost - you can't draw 6 if you don't shuffle.  That's why this

Yes, Jerusalem Tower stops forced drawing. Which is a real bummer for Jerusalem Tower, since Mayhem is so prevalent.

was stated, because JT allows Mayhem to empty your hand.