Author Topic: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"  (Read 2803 times)

Offline stefferweffer

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Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« on: April 08, 2009, 11:50:24 AM »
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1)  Scenario came up last night, where I banded Jacob with Captain of the Host (negates all special abilities and enahcements except banding).  COTH was Martyred.  The battle is still FBTN except for banding, even though the hero that caused that is no longer in the battle, right?

2)  I was surprised to read on these forums that for heroes like Michael and Thomas (Enhancements used by these heroes cannot be negated), that the ability itself also cannot be negated?  So if Michael is blocked by KOT (all abilities on characters and enhancement cards are negated, fight by numbers), Michael can still play his enahcements and they cannot be negated?  This doesn't make much sense to me, since there are specific heros that say that their abilities cannot be negated (i.e. Seeker of the Lost), but I will accept it if that is the ruling.  But my next question would be - What other heros can take advantage of this in a FBTN battle?  The first one that comes to my mind is Benjamin (if all your heroes are Genesis heroes then enahcements used by Benjamin cannot be negated).  Is his special ability not negated in a FBTN battle either (assuming all your heroes are Genesis heroes)?  Are there other heroes with similar abilities that are not negated in FBTN encounters?

Thanks again for all your help as we struggle to get all of this right.

The Schaef

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2009, 11:55:32 AM »
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1). Yes, all cards continue to be prevented because Captain's ability lasts through the end of the battle.

2). If an ability cannot be negated, that means you can't negate it directly or indirectly.  For example, if I play Words of Encouragement, draw, then play a cannot-be-negated card, you can't negate that card directly, and you can't cancel it out by negating Words of Encouragement either.  It stays no matter what.  Similarly, if an Enhancement played on Michael cannot be negated, that means it stays no matter what.  So you can't negate Michael's ability to try and get at the cards he plays.

Offline crustpope

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2009, 12:03:25 PM »
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 +1 with schaef.  Learn the 10 commandments of Redemption.  Cannot be negated means cannot be Negated...Period.

Other heroes that CBN inclued Paul (as Paul coverted from Saul) and Joshua the High Priest.  Ahimaz the priest has the SA that special abilities cannot be interrupted (but they can be prevented) so they would be prevented in a FBTN situation.

There are some EC's that have CBN status such as Nergalshazar and Naaman.

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Offline 777Godspeed

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2009, 12:09:22 PM »
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1) That is correct in the scenario you are using.

2)a. In the instance of Michael and Thomas you are correct. Their ability Cannot be Negated.
   b. Enhancements played on Michael Cannot be Negated (CBN) even against KoT who is attempting to negating everything.
   c. Benjamin, Thomas, Michael are all good starts to this list. (I can't think of others off the top of my head)
   d. If the conditions are met to grant the CBN status then Benjamins ability to play CBN enhs cannot be negated.
   e. Yes. Refer to c. above and there are others that I can't think of off the top of my head. There are also a handful in the ECs also.
        (Rabshekah + 2kHorses, Nergalsherezer + Swift Horses (when conditions are satisfied), Naaman + NCH    to list a few.

Good questions. I took me awhile to sort some of this stuff out in my head also. I believe all that I have posted is true most of the time unless there are some specific scenarios I haven't encounterd or can't think of. (yes I'm having trouble thinking today with a cold)

Godspeed,
Mike


bahhh, instaposted by Schaef and Crustpope. I'll post anyway just cause it made my head hurt to think.   ;D
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Offline stefferweffer

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2009, 06:44:51 PM »
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Thanks for all the clarification.

But I just have to mention this.  Isn't this all a little contradictory though?  All this time we have played that negate means "interrupt and prevent at the same time", so I would think that an EC like KOT or Sapphira, that specify that they negate special abilities on characters and enhancements, mean exactly what they say.  There is nothing on Thomas and Michael that say "this special ability cannot be negated" (unlike Seeker of the Lost that DOES say this), so why is it that in these specific cases the hero's special ability, which would otherwise be negated, ISN'T?  I just hate having to teach newer players that Fight by Numbers means you ignore/undo the effect of the hero's special ability, UNLESS it is these 3 or 4 heroes, whose special ability by the way does not say "this special ability cannot ne negated".  Same thing with ECs like Naaman in a battle against Moses.  I assume also that Dungeon of Malchiah is still playable on King Zedekiah, AND cannot be negated, in a FBTN battle?  I fully understand this rule if a character's ability or an enhancement specifically says that the ability of the character or the effect the enhancement cannot be negated (like AOC promo), but the special abilities of these characters that have been listed don't say that.  Was it always this way and our group has just been playing these characters wrong the whole time, or was this a more recent ruling?

Am I the only one that finds this confusing?  Thanks again for listening, as always :)

Offline Arch Angel

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2009, 07:02:28 PM »
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the rule is simply that a card that grants CBN status also CBN. It's not a matter of it being just a few cards, just that any ability that says "X cannot be negated" can't be negated.

cforce44

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2009, 07:03:31 PM »
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Some of the older cards explain the cards ability because earlier in redemption the direction the game was going to take was not known. Once cannot be negated became more clearly defined further explaination on cards was not needed.

As for the reason of cards being created with cannot be negated special abilities being created is because there was so many fbtn cards and/or other negates that have come over time. So it was probably an attempt to keep from a chain of negates being played back and forth.

The Schaef

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2009, 07:30:02 PM »
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Am I the only one that finds this confusing?  Thanks again for listening, as always :)

No more confusing than someone negating your cannot-be-negated cards.

Offline crustpope

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2009, 10:57:30 PM »
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Offline stefferweffer

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2009, 10:08:30 PM »
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I just had a thought, about this rule that "cannot be negated means cannot be negated, ever".  What about cards like "Tears for a friend", "Abel's sacrifice", and "Faith in our High Priest", all of which says that future enhancements used by that hero that turn "cannot be negated"?  In a FBTN battle, are those enhancements negated?

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2009, 10:27:56 PM »
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No.
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Offline stefferweffer

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2009, 12:47:54 AM »
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So if Benaiah (Green FBTN hero) is in battle, he can play Abel's Sacrifice (you may play the next enhancement which cannot be interupted or prevented), and Benaiah's own special ability does not prevent the special ability of Abel's Sacrifice OR of the next green enhancement, but its still a FBTN battle for the EC?

The Schaef

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2009, 12:53:04 AM »
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Abel's Sacrifice says "Abel’s Sacrifice and all good enhancements played after it this turn cannot be interrupted or prevented."  So that ability works.

You might mean the new Tears for a Friend - "All players must reveal their hands. You may play the next Enhancement, which cannot be interrupted."  Since that says "interrupted" and not "prevented" or "negated", it can be (and is) stopped by the FBN card played before it: Benaiah.

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2009, 09:19:10 PM »
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For example, if I play Words of Encouragement, draw, then play a cannot-be-negated card, you can't negate that card directly, and you can't cancel it out by negating Words of Encouragement either.  It stays no matter what.

I just had a thought.

Isnt the ability to play a card unable to be interrupted anyways?

Scottie_ffgamer

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2009, 09:38:06 PM »
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Not until after the card has been played.  You can't interrupt and ability half way through.

Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Fighting by the numbers and "cannot be negated"
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2009, 10:02:13 PM »
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Quote
Isnt the ability to play a card unable to be interrupted anyways?

It's not, but the ability to draw is.  If you played one of the cards drawn with Words and it could be negated, negating Words would negate the enhancement.

 


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