Author Topic: Enhancement questions from a newbie  (Read 1793 times)

Offline sliptie

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Enhancement questions from a newbie
« on: April 29, 2014, 08:36:33 AM »
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1) If I play an enhancement on a hero and retain the initiative, is it now impossible for my opponent to negate/discard this enhancement? Assuming I choose to resolve battle (I know it sounds foolish, but this is hypothetical) or I play another enhancement on top of that one?

2) If I have 2+ enhancements on a hero when initiative is returned to my opponent and they are able to play 2 consecutive "negate/discard" last enhancement played in battle, will my last 2 be discarded even tho the "last" one had already been discarded?

3) If I have a warrior class enhancement attached to a warrior class hero outside of battle and my opponent plays an evil character followed by "discard" last enhancement played, will that discard my warrior class enhancement? It wasn't played after the battle started, but it WAS played for battle.

Thank you! Admittedly, I have barely searched the forums for my answers before posting, so your search flaming will fall on deaf ears ^^

Offline Minion of Jesus

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2014, 09:29:19 AM »
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1) If you retain initiative, and opponent plays a negate and discard later, then it will be negated and discarded.

2) No. They could only play one, because the next would negate the one he played just before it.

3) Probably. I don't know for certain, though.
To the Pain!

-Wesley

Offline sliptie

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2014, 10:06:58 AM »
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Thank you so much for taking the time to respond, but I feel the questions still need an answer. In regards to:

1) Assume I choose to resolve battle. This HAS come up in our last game. I played an evil character and enhancement JUST to proc the enhancement, knowing I would lose the battle

2) My fault for being so vague. What happens if their 2 enhancements read "discard last GOOD enhancement played in battle"? Does just the last one go away, or both? I understand this is theoretically impossible as removal of my "last" good enhancement would transfer the initiative back to me, but the question remains.

Offline Minion of Jesus

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2014, 10:39:38 AM »
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Thank you so much for taking the time to respond, but I feel the questions still need an answer. In regards to:

1) Assume I choose to resolve battle. This HAS come up in our last game. I played an evil character and enhancement JUST to proc the enhancement, knowing I would lose the battle

2) My fault for being so vague. What happens if their 2 enhancements read "discard last GOOD enhancement played in battle"? Does just the last one go away, or both? I understand this is theoretically impossible as removal of my "last" good enhancement would transfer the initiative back to me, but the question remains.

1) If you choose to resolve the battle (I assume you mean let yourself die) and the enhancement you played does not effect the opposing character, then there is nothing they can do, because they will not have initiative.

2) Weird. Only the (single) last good enhancement would be discarded.
To the Pain!

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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2014, 10:40:29 AM »
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Thank you so much for taking the time to respond, but I feel the questions still need an answer. In regards to:

1) Assume I choose to resolve battle. This HAS come up in our last game. I played an evil character and enhancement JUST to proc the enhancement, knowing I would lose the battle
If you have initiative and you choose to let the battle resolve, in general your opponent cannot play an enhancement. There is one exception to this, which is if your opponent has a special ability active which grants them the right to play an enhancement--for example from Angel's Sword or Helmet of Brass. Your opponent could also negate your enhancement using an artifact (for example Unsucessful or Covenant with Noah).  Barring those, the battle will go to resolution with your enhancement in tact.

Quote
2) My fault for being so vague. What happens if their 2 enhancements read "discard last GOOD enhancement played in battle"? Does just the last one go away, or both? I understand this is theoretically impossible as removal of my "last" good enhancement would transfer the initiative back to me, but the question remains.
There is always only one "last enhancement played in battle."  If you play good enhancement A followed by B before passing initiative to your opponent--the only enhancement he can discard using a "discard last GOOD enhancement played in battle" ability is card B.  Discarding B does not rewind the clock.

Instaposted.

Offline sliptie

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2014, 10:54:57 AM »
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Thank you very much you two for helping completely answer my first two questions. This just leaves #3, if anyone has clarification.

3) If I have a warrior class enhancement attached to a warrior class hero outside of battle and my opponent plays an evil character followed by "discard" last enhancement played, will that discard my warrior class enhancement? It wasn't played after the battle started, but it WAS played for battle.

For clarification; while the enhancement was "equipped" outside of battle, the question assumes that the hero and their enhancement are put onto the battlefield......I have a knack for muddling up a question when it goes from thought to paper.

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2014, 11:13:41 AM »
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Answer to #3. Yes, the weapon would be discarded in this case.

Offline sliptie

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2014, 11:47:18 AM »
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Awesome! Thank you all so much! Have a truly blessed day, and happy gaming  ;D

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2014, 05:08:57 PM »
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Answer to #3. Yes, the weapon would be discarded in this case.

Not if the warrior holding the enhancement hasn't entered battle. Weapons aren't played unless they enter battle. That's why you can put good weapons on warriors if your Opponent has Darius Decree active.
Just one more thing...

browarod

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2014, 11:33:52 AM »
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To clarify regarding the double "negate last" question: The "last" enhancement to be played of a specific alignment is simply the most recent one to have been played, it's not one specific enhancement. If the Hero plays 2 enhancements (perhaps they band in 2 Heroes with the ability to play an enhancement) and then the blocker has initiative, they could play 2 "negate the last good enhancement/card played" to negate both of the played good enhancements. Negate makes it so the negated thing never happened, so if you negate the second enhancement the first one then becomes the "last good enhancement played" and the second negate can thus target it.

Hopefully that makes sense. :P

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2014, 02:40:00 PM »
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Answer to #3. Yes, the weapon would be discarded in this case.

Not if the warrior holding the enhancement hasn't entered battle. Weapons aren't played unless they enter battle. That's why you can put good weapons on warriors if your Opponent has Darius Decree active.

The OP has already addressed this point.

For clarification; while the enhancement was "equipped" outside of battle, the question assumes that the hero and their enhancement are put onto the battlefield......

(I am a little confused, however, as to why someone felt the clarification to a non-asked question merited an up vote, but oh well...)

To clarify regarding the double "negate last" question:
I was answering the "discard last" question.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 02:43:02 PM by EmJayBee83 »

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2014, 04:54:21 PM »
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If the Hero plays 2 enhancements (perhaps they band in 2 Heroes with the ability to play an enhancement) and then the blocker has initiative, they could play 2 "negate the last good enhancement/card played" to negate both of the played good enhancements. Negate makes it so the negated thing never happened, so if you negate the second enhancement the first one then becomes the "last good enhancement played" and the second negate can thus target it.

I understand what you are trying to say, but this is not true.

Negating a card does NOTHING to undo its playing.  You still played the card, even if the effect is negated.

If you "negate last" and then "negate last" again, it targets the same card, because it is based on what is played, not what wasn't negated.

browarod

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2014, 06:02:47 PM »
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I would respectfully disagree, and have seen it played the way I explained in tournaments (including 2011 nationals) in that negate completely makes it so the card never had any impact on anything. Do you have something from the rules that supports your statement?

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2014, 06:06:05 PM »
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I would respectfully disagree, and have seen it played the way I ruled in tournaments (including 2011 nationals) in that negate completely makes it so the card never had any impact on anything. Do you have something from the rules that supports your statement?

...negate does not undo playing.  Sorry, that has never been the case, I do not know who ruled that way.  Here is the REG information:

Quote from: The REG
A negate ability takes a previously completed ability and undoes the effect of that ability.

Honestly, you have to prove that it undoes the playing of the card it negates (which it doesn't do obviously, or the card would go back to where it came from, or at least be put out of play, instead of remaining in play).  The ruling you have is incorrect.  Only the ability is affected when you negate the card.

Offline Drrek

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2014, 08:19:57 PM »
+1
To clarify regarding the double "negate last" question: The "last" enhancement to be played of a specific alignment is simply the most recent one to have been played, it's not one specific enhancement. If the Hero plays 2 enhancements (perhaps they band in 2 Heroes with the ability to play an enhancement) and then the blocker has initiative, they could play 2 "negate the last good enhancement/card played" to negate both of the played good enhancements. Negate makes it so the negated thing never happened, so if you negate the second enhancement the first one then becomes the "last good enhancement played" and the second negate can thus target it.

Hopefully that makes sense. :P

This is not true.  Negate undoes abilities, but enhancements are played, per the definition of play when they are attempted to be activated for ability or numbers in battle.  Because the numbers are still in battle, and the ability was attempted to be played, it was still played. Negation does not undo the playing of the card.
The user formerly known as Easty.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2014, 07:00:08 AM »
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Drrek's post is correct, and thanks for pulling out the definition of play.  Further, negate only undoes an ability that already happened (or prevents it from happening), and it never treats the card as if it never happened, or undoes the playing of said card.  The only ability that has us treat something as if it never happened is instead, but that isn't close to applicable in this case (also, it almost always is just insteading abilities, too).

browarod

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2014, 11:24:22 AM »
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The only ability that has us treat something as if it never happened is instead
Now that's definitely not true. :P

Negating a draw ability cascade negates any cards played that were drawn by that draw ability (except CBN cards) and returns them to deck (which undoes their playing, because if it didn't that would be crazy weird) so there is precedence for undoing the playing of a card. It may not happen in the way I thought it did but it happens sometimes. ;)

At least that's how I thought it works. Apparently I've been wrong about this sort of thing before, haha.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 01:39:58 PM by browarod »

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Enhancement questions from a newbie
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2014, 06:49:11 PM »
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There would be debate on that part, actually.  The card was still played, but was cascade-negated due to the draw being negated.  You saying that it is treated as if it was never played is not necessarily the rule, and negate-draw-cascade has always been a 'gray' area for rulings (and silly, if you ask me, but anyway...).

Regardless, I think this ruling question has been resolved, unless anyone has anything else they were confused about relating to the answers received?

 


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