Cactus Game Design Message Boards

just because something is the status quo does not mean it is always right. this game should be played by consistency and the letter of the law, not always by the status quo.

STAY IN SCHOOL! EAT YOUR VEGGIES!

DONT CLIMB TALL MILK CRATES!

just because something is the status quo does not mean it is always right.

Tell that to the people who think demons should be redeemed.  

But seriously, maintaining the staus quo is only ONE of the 3-4 factors we consider in issuing errata and rule changes.  We have made rulings that have changed the status quo to favor strict adherance to wordings.  Many of those have been very unpopular (Remember the fallout when we ruled that the N.T. lost soul protects itself from rescue by Son of God?).

Obviously, players have always assumed Ithamar only activated Tabernacle artifacts on the Tabernacle because the wording on the cards involved make it seem like that is the case.  Preserving the status quo on this would not be enough to warrant errata if this question was a common one that we'd had to answer many times over the years.  But the fact is, players have never raised this question until now, and even in this thread it did not appear to gain any traction until Tim posted his opinion that it would work.  

Of course the creative players here would be excited about the possibility, since it opens up combinations of artifacts/covenants/curses that have never even been considered before, much less tested.  Someone is going to come up with some insane combination that will make a tidal wave right about States, and we'll be back here hotly debating if that combo is too strong and whether or not Ithamar should get errata.  Or, we could just do it now and save players the headache of working so hard, only to have their strategy ruled illegal when they show up at nats.  

Rob is going to have to make the call here.

EDIT: a playtester just remind me of a combination of artifacts that we simply cannot allow.  One of them is Holy Grail, and I can't say what the other one is.  
As a result, and because of other potential combos both present and future, I do not expect Ithamar to be allowed to activate a non-Tabernacle artifact on the Tabernacle.  Further, it would be too restrictive as we design cards, since we'd always have to consider combos involving multiple artifacts (a consideration we previously only had to consider when designing the Tabernacle/Temple artifacts, or how new artifacts would combine with those).

that combo is nowhere near broken. and you can only do it twice, anyways.

Um.  Yes, it is broken.  It doesn't require a single character or enhancement and you get to destroy half a typical defense.  Further, you can combo the mystery artifact with I Am Patience for even more (unlimited) territory decimation.  Players want LESS territory destruction, not rediculously powerful territory decimation.  Toss in Jephthah and you'll rarely have to fight.  No way, no how.

So players want LESS territory destruction and all y'all decide to work on...

Further, you can combo the mystery artifact with I Am Patience for even more (unlimited) territory decimation.

Thanx for listening. 


Working hypothesis: An artifact which doubles the SA of an active artifact.  HG could be used twice for 2 ECs each.

Quote from: Bryon on March 11, 2010, 10:12:42 AM

Further, you can combo the mystery artifact with I Am Patience for even more (unlimited) territory decimation.

I'm not sure what this card is, but it sounds to me like you could do this anyway with Book of the Law.

And by that you mean Book of the Covenant of course.

Quote from: Master KChief on March 11, 2010, 07:19:04 AM

that combo is nowhere near broken. and you can only do it twice, anyways.

Um.  Yes, it is broken.  It doesn't require a single character or enhancement...

uh, so? it requires an artifact. that equates to any other card in number that could possibly do the exact same thing. not to mention an artifact slot, which is more restrictive than playing a character or enhancement.

and you get to destroy half a typical defense.

if you meet the requirements, and even further if those valid targets are in play.

 Further, you can combo the mystery artifact with I Am Patience for even more (unlimited) territory decimation.  

i find it ironic you state this, yet hg + mystery art = brokensauce. you can also combo it with 2 certain territory enhancements, which would accoomplish the exact same thing as the hg + mystery art combo. is this also broken as well?

Players want LESS territory destruction, not rediculously powerful territory decimation.

wrong. players want less TGT and pre-block ignore, not less territory destruction.

Quote

Players want LESS territory destruction, not rediculously powerful territory decimation.

wrong. players want less TGT and pre-block ignore, not less territory destruction.

I want less of both, personally.

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on March 11, 2010, 11:34:50 AM

Territory destruction is what makes TGT so strong. TGT does nothing on its own. TGT is also the most often complained about Pre-block card. Thus, countering territory destruction helps to counter TGT.

territory destruction was never as hyped about before tgt came along. territory destruction was there, yes, but it didnt win battles completely by itself.

Territory destruction, by its very nature, does not win battles.  It wins games.

Women as Snares, Holy Grail, and Jephthah have won many, many more games than TGT.

I predicted this debate would happen.  Suddenly we are forced to determine whether certain combos of artifacts and covenants and curses are "broken" or not.  The dam is already starting to show cracks and leaks.  Let's just errata Ithamar and avoid the mess.

@MasterKC: one of those T-class enhancements has been changed since you saw that list.  Only the existing one will be able to be combined with the mystery artifact for max effect.

agreed. i have also never recalled woman or jep being much more than a nuisance pre-tgt. td doesn't win games. buckler wins games.

Quote from: BubbleBoy on March 11, 2010, 12:02:09 PM

Quote from: Bryon on March 11, 2010, 11:54:47 AM

Women as Snares, Holy Grail, and Jephthah have won many, many more games than TGT.

Well, to be fair, many of those games were played with TGT, which probably played a big role in the winning.

I meant historically, as in, eve since the Patriarchs released, those three cards have won a huge number of games.  But even in current TGT decks, the territory destruction is what causes TGT to do anything against a mono-color deck.  If Women as Snares and Holy Grail were not in the game, TGT decks would not be all that. 

I can't say much about pre-Patriarch times, but I agree that TD is a powerful strategy, one that in my experiance does win games, and one that is enhanced by TGT (or vice versa).

The dam is already starting to show cracks and leaks.  Let's just errata Ithamar and avoid the mess.

My hope is that instead of an errata we take this opportunity to lessen the future chances of errata by "fixing" certain inconsistencies across the board since a new REG and rulebook will soon be published. 

Let's get Ithamar, Gabriel (Wa), Battle Prayer (Wa), Great Faith, et al played like they should by defining an appropriate rule. 

Let's clarify current misconstrued definitions such as "cannot be prevented", "negate=interrupt+prevent", "not in battle", etc.

Let's delineate all targeting rules.

And so much more...