Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Unless it is just me, the links to the REG are currently not working. Please post the abilties.

The REG is down for me too...

Strange, it was working for me when I posted the stuff.

Can Ithamar, son of Aaron activate a non-tabernacle artifact on The Tabernacle? I wouldn't think so, but what if Image of Jealousy or Spreading Mildew were placed on The Tabernacle?

To answer your question, no you could not activate a non-tabernacle artifact.  While Ithamar allows you to activate an artifact on the Tabernacle, the Tabernacle restricts what kinds of artifacts can be active there.

If Image of Jealosy or Spreading mildew were in play, then no artifact would be able to be active, as all of the effects of the card would be negated. 

Hey,

Quote from: BubbleBoy on October 11, 2009, 09:45:04 AM

Can Ithamar, son of Aaron activate a non-tabernacle artifact on The Tabernacle? I wouldn't think so, but what if Image of Jealousy or Spreading Mildew were placed on The Tabernacle?

My gut reaction is to say yes.  The activate an artifact part of Ithamar's ability isn't clarifying text because it allows you to activate an artifact at a time you normally couldn't.  And it doesn't restrict the Artifact to being a temple artifact.  I wouldn't be surprised if the other powers that be find a way to limit Ithamar to only activating tabernacle artifacts, but for now I'm going to say he can activate a non-tabernacle artifact there.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Are you saying he can activate one in addition to the one that can already be in there because of The Tabernacle's SA?

Hey,

Then what are the rules for that Artifact? Does it stay active until deactivated/discarded? Can you put a Tabernacle artifact in the Tabernacle while the non-Tabernacle Artifact is there (because of the ability of the Tabernacle)? I don't know, it all seems fishy to me.

Artifacts are always activated for one round.  After that round ends they must either be reactivated or deactivated.

I'm leaning towards saying that "The Tabernacle" in the second sentence of Ithamar's ability is refering to "The Tabernacle" from the first sentence of his ability.  Meaning you can only use his ability to activate an artifact on a Tabernacle you just put into play.  That would keep you from ever having two artifacts in The Tabernacle, and under normal circumstances, would mean you would only get one turn per game with a non-Tabernacle artifact in The Tabernacle.

It all seems fishy to me too.

Solomon Dedicates Temple has a similar wording.  I imagine there might be a precedent from that card (although I'm not sure the precedent would be correct).

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Hey,

Quote from: BubbleBoy on October 11, 2009, 09:45:04 AM

Can Ithamar, son of Aaron activate a non-tabernacle artifact on The Tabernacle? I wouldn't think so, but what if Image of Jealousy or Spreading Mildew were placed on The Tabernacle?

My gut reaction is to say yes.  The activate an artifact part of Ithamar's ability isn't clarifying text because it allows you to activate an artifact at a time you normally couldn't.  And it doesn't restrict the Artifact to being a temple artifact.  I wouldn't be surprised if the other powers that be find a way to limit Ithamar to only activating tabernacle artifacts, but for now I'm going to say he can activate a non-tabernacle artifact there.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Tim,

Not going with you here.  Being able to activate an artifact outside of the preperation phase like Ithamar does cannot change the legality of an artifact being activated.  The second sentence reads as follows:

You may activate an artifact on The Tabernacle.

The Tabernacle is allowed to hold tabernacle artifacts, as noted in its attributes.  Being allowed to activate an artifact there in a later phase than preperation is fine and dandy, but the act of activation still requires that the activation be legal.

Why has this game come down to people trying to twist the wording of cards to make them work the way they want them to, instead of the way they are designed and meant to work?

Ithamar is obviously activating a Tabernacle Artifact on the Tabernacle.

Quote from: BubbleBoy on October 13, 2009, 07:32:37 AM

The whole point of special abilities is that they make things happen that wouldn't happen naturally by game rule. Ithamar just says to activate an artifact on the Tabernacle. It makes no reference to the Tabernacle's ability. I'm glad Tim agrees with me on this one.

What really flabberghasts me is that apparently when card A says do something, then we can simply ignore every other cards effects and attributes because card A says do this.

Ithamar lets you activate an artifact on your fortress The Tabernacle.  You are being given an artifact activation effect outside of the preperation phase, and only on the tabernacle.  Now, in order for that activation to be a legal play, the artifact must be a Tabernacle artifact, as noted by the fact that the Tabernacle says holds one active Tabernacle artifact in its attribute line.

It's the exact same concept as Ethopian Tresurer letting you play the next enhancement.  Since he allows you to play an enhancement outside of the battle initiative, then are we allowed to play a green enhancement on him?  You can play an enhancement without an EC in battle, so then we are allowed to ignore the fact that he is a purple hero, right?

very well put. . restrictions must still be noted.

Hey,

Why has this game come down to people trying to twist the wording of cards to make them work the way they want them to, instead of the way they are designed and meant to work?

Because Redemption has a history of doing a less than stellar job of accurately expressing what the card is meant to do on the card.  While I have seen many instances of players trying to make cards do something they want them to do that isn't supported by the rules, this is not one of those instances.  The playtesters are the ones at fault in this case for wording Ithamar poorly.  The players are not at fault for noticing.  Of course whose fault it is really isn't all that relevant to the question at hand which is how do we fix Ithamar.

Ithamar is obviously supposed to activate a Tabernacle Artifact on the Tabernacle, but that limitation is not expressed in his ability.  I've not yet come up with a good way to explain through the rules that Ithamar can only activate a Tabernacle Artifact on the Tabernacle.  If anyone has any ideas on how we can do that the PTB would be happy to hear those ideas.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

It's the exact same concept as Ethopian Tresurer letting you play the next enhancement.

I think this is the best explanation.  Just because ET can play a GE at a different time doesn't mean it can be a different color than purple whatever colors are represented by the Good Characters in battle at the time.

The holds statement on the Tabernacle allows you to activate a Tabernacle artifact on the Tabernacle, it isn't limiting you to activating only Tabernacle artifacts on the Tabernacle.

I respectfully disagree, and your other examples do not sway me.    I agree with those that have clarified stated restrictions for The Tabernacle.

The Garden Tomb has the identifier "empty!" but that doesn't mean I can't put Image of Jealousy on it.

You can put IoJ on it, just not in it.