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Withdraw and Underdeck are different. Withdraw means the character returns to territory and is different than underdeck, topdeck and returning to hand.

Withdraw and Underdeck are different. Withdraw means the character returns to territory and is different than underdeck, topdeck and returning to hand.

Then why is Asaheal protected from Grapes?

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on June 24, 2013, 04:28:21 PM

Withdraw and Underdeck are different. Withdraw means the character returns to territory and is different than underdeck, topdeck and returning to hand.

Then why is Asaheal protected from Grapes?

I believe he was ruled to be at one time (though not any more, I remember there was a thread that ruled he was not), because shuffle was classified as a return ability (and Asahel isn't just protected from withdraw, he's protected from return).

This raises a question to me though, is underdeck/topdeck considered a return ability?

I believe he was ruled to be at one time (though not any more, I remember there was a thread that ruled he was not), because shuffle was classified as a return ability (and Asahel isn't just protected from withdraw, he's protected from return).

Can you point to that thread?  Because the most recent ruling on this situation is here, and that is the actual rulings thread.

Also, if you look in the REG, under Clarifications for Shuffle, you find:

An ability that returns a card to deck and then shuffles the deck is a shuffle ability, not a return ability.

So Asahel is not protected from Grapes.

On the other question, Underdeck and Topdeck are not return abilities either.  For one, that is not the location they originated generally, but the main thing is that the definition of return is that it returns to territory or hand.

If you look in the REG, the ability for Return is listed as follows:

Return (to Hand)
General Description
A return to hand ability puts a card into its owner’s hand.

Return (to Territory)
General Description
A return to territory ability puts a card into its owner’s territory.

So in all of this, Asahel's protection from Withdraw and Return only affect abilities that put them in territories or hand.

EDIT: Fixed the return bit a little.

What if someone were to band in a hero from deck via Ship to Cyprus and then be underdecked/topdecked? Could that be a return ability since they're going back to their original location?

No, because as I pointed out, all abilities with "Return" go to hand or territory by the very definition, and "Withdraw" obviously goes to territory.  Putting a card in deck is Shuffling (which explicitly is not a return, per the clarification), and putting a card on top or bottom of deck is Topdecking/Underdecking and is not Return.  None of those are defined as return abilities in Redemption.

Quote from: JSB23 on June 24, 2013, 10:47:51 PM

Then when was the ruling reversed?

I have the same question.

I'm honestly not sure about the "reversal" being discussed, but the rule has been in effect since it was officially added to the New Rulings Thread, and I have seen no changes since then.  Also, the REG specifically clarifies that Shuffle is not a Return ability.