Author Topic: Is toss a discard ability? (Read 8516 times)

sepjazzwarrior · « **on:** August 30, 2019, 07:57:36 AM »

To toss a card you have to discard it, so does it count as a discard ability?

Josh · « **Reply #1 on:** August 30, 2019, 08:02:44 AM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on August 30, 2019, 07:57:36 AM

To toss a card you have to discard it, so does it count as a discard ability?

Toss (my wording) - When an enhancement is played, if it is Tossed, instead discard that enhancement and decrease an opposing character X/X, where X is the strength of the discarded enhancement.

In the same way that a Take ability can be a search even though it doesn't have the word "search", I would honestly rule that Toss is both a discard ability and a decrease ability.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #2 on:** August 31, 2019, 08:25:37 PM »

Could we get an elder to confirm pls? Thanks

MMHobbitWW · « **Reply #3 on:** September 01, 2019, 09:18:59 AM »

The discard is a modification of a game rule of playing an enhancement. It is an ability that lets you discard not a discard ability in-and-of itself.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #4 on:** September 01, 2019, 06:52:48 PM »

Quote from: MMHobbitWW on September 01, 2019, 09:18:59 AM

The discard is a modification of a game rule of playing an enhancement. It is an ability that lets you discard not a discard ability in-and-of itself.

Even more technically, it's an instead ability that includes a discard as part of the instead. My immediate reaction is to say it's not a discard ability, but I can't remember if there might be precedent for abilities that include other abilities (like Take including Search) to count as the included ability. If there isn't a hard ruling yet in the elder's minds, my

is that cards should only count as "having a _____" ability if _____ literally appears in the card's rules text.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #5 on:** September 01, 2019, 08:42:14 PM »

I know hezzys signant ring stops take from deck abilities because they inhearantly inclued a search ability, so they count as a search ability, that to me says toss is a discsrd ability because it inhearently discards the enhancement.

Gabe · « **Reply #6 on:** September 01, 2019, 08:52:29 PM »

A while back we worked diligently to “untangle” abilities. IIRC the only exception at the end of that labor of love is search. Some abilities function similarly, or even do the same thing under the right circumstances, but they do not qualify as the same thing.

So I’m pretty certain that toss doesn’t qualify as a discard ability although it does discard.

Watchman · « **Reply #7 on:** September 02, 2019, 12:10:19 PM »

The action of discarding a card to activate a specific ability that targets a card (i.e., toss), to me, is not the same as an ability (i.e., discard ability) that specifically targets a card to be discarded. Therefore, I would say that a toss ability is not the same as a discard ability.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #8 on:** September 02, 2019, 01:04:44 PM »

To me that is overly complex, an ability that discards a card is a discard ability, why does it need to be any more complicated than that?

777Godspeed · « **Reply #9 on:** September 02, 2019, 02:10:04 PM »

From the REG:
Toss
Last Updated: 5/7/2019 (v6.0.0)
Released: 3/4/2013
How to Play
● A toss effect allows a player to play an Enhancement in a different way than usual; instead of activating the
numbers or abilities of the Enhancement, the Enhancement is discarded to decrease an opposing character,
regardless of protect or immune effects.
● The opposing character is decreased X/X, where X is the strength of the discarded Enhancement at face value.
The decrease is instant.
● A toss effect targets the Enhancements that would be played and an opposing character to be decreased for each
Enhancement that would be played.
● Unless otherwise specified, Enhancement targets come from a hand.
● Toss effects that target variations on the “next Enhancement” or “all Enhancements” are ongoing.
● All other toss effects are instant.
Special Conditions
● Weapons which are played in battle, including those equipped to characters added to battle are also affected by
an active toss effect.
● Enhancements played in battle or added to battle by an ability are also affected by an active toss effect.
● If a toss effect is negated all tossed cards are returned to their previous locations and the decrease is removed
from the decreased characters.
● If an Enhancement with negative strength is tossed, it results in an increase to the opposing character. This is
because the decrease subtracts the strength from the opposing character, and subtracting a negative number
increases the value.

Discard
Last Updated: 1/3/2018 (v5.0.0)
Released: 7/26/2011
How to Play
● A discard effect moves a card from its current location to its owner’s discard pile.
● If a Lost Soul is discarded from a deck it is put into its owner’s Land of Bondage.
● If multiple cards are discarded by a single discard effect, reveal the cards before putting them in the discard
pile.
● A discard effect targets the cards that are to be discarded.
● Unless otherwise specified, targets must be in play.
● All discard effects are instant.
Clarifications
● The word “instantly” in the phrase “instantly discarded” is superfluous.

Initially, I had the same concern/confusion until I came to grips that Toss is Toss, Discard is Discard and the two shall never cross. I believe it to be game rule that causes a Toss card "to go to/be placed in the discard pile" (maybe that verbiage will help clarify). It is not a discard ability that causes a Toss card "to be discarded". At least this is how I keep it straight and clear in my mind.

Godspeed,
Mike

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #10 on:** September 02, 2019, 02:31:34 PM »

Then why is a take from deck ability also a search ability? There is a lack of consistency on how these ability within an ability abilities have been ruled on

Watchman · « **Reply #11 on:** September 02, 2019, 03:31:08 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 02, 2019, 02:31:34 PM

Then why is a take from deck ability also a search ability? There is a lack of consistency on how these ability within an ability abilities have been ruled on

Because you are searching for a card when the take targets the deck, etc. This is not the same when it comes to what a discard ability is in Redemption.

A discard ability specifically targets a card for discard from play to the discard pile based upon what the ability is targeting. The point of a toss is to not play the ability on the tossed card but instead to decrease an opposing character by X/X due to the strength of the tossed card. And a part of the toss ability is to discard the decreasing card as a physical action, not an ability that discards a specific card in play. If you want to consider a toss a discard ability then you might as well consider a decrease ability as also a discard ability bc if the decreased character’s toughness reaches 0 then that card is discarded. But a discard and decrease are not the same ability bc they are fundamentally different, just as a toss ability and discard ability are fundamentally different.

And for the record, I was never a fan of take being used as a search ability. I thought it should have been left as taking ownership of an opponent’s card because of the crossing of abilities that can (and has) caused, at times, confusion. The same with regardless of protection becoming a modifier. It should have been left as part of an ability.

777Godspeed · « **Reply #12 on:** September 02, 2019, 05:12:57 PM »

This question here:

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 02, 2019, 02:31:34 PM

Then why is a take from deck ability also a search ability? There is a lack of consistency on how these ability within an ability abilities have been ruled on

Is answered by Gabe here:

Quote from: Gabe on September 01, 2019, 08:52:29 PM

A while back we worked diligently to “untangle” abilities. IIRC the only exception at the end of that labor of love is search. Some abilities function similarly, or even do the same thing under the right circumstances, but they do not qualify as the same thing.

Ideally, Take is Take, Search is Search and never the two shall cross. But according to Gabe, after a lot of research and work, Take and Search could not be completely "untangled" from each other. Although not ideal, I surmise the Elders are well aware of it and will continue to do their best to minimize additional confusion between Take and Search.

Godspeed,
Mike

TheJaylor · « **Reply #13 on:** September 02, 2019, 05:14:53 PM »

One way to think about it is that if you had something that protects your Good Enhancements from discard, it wouldn't really make sense if that meant you couldn't toss them. But if you have a card that protects your deck from searching (e.g. Nazareth), then it makes sense that you shouldn't be able to take a card directly from your deck. (I say directly because taking from a revealed set of cards is not considered a search.)

Josh · « **Reply #14 on:** September 03, 2019, 11:19:41 AM »

Quote from: TheJaylor on September 02, 2019, 05:14:53 PM

One way to think about it is that if you had something that protects your Good Enhancements from discard, it wouldn't really make sense if that meant you couldn't toss them.

Why not?

First, this line says that the enhancement is discarded directly from hand:

"● Unless otherwise specified, Enhancement targets come from a hand."

(To me, it doesn't make sense that Tossed enhancements are discarded from hand and never enter play, because then weapons shouldn't be tossed. But I'll ignore that for now.)

Consider this scenario:

- I have 4 Drachma Coin active.
- I attack with a hero and my opponent blocks with Roman Spearman.
- My hand is protected from discard abilities on opponent's cards.

At this point, any GE I toss is being discarded by my opponent's card. Why wouldn't 4DC protect my GEs in hand from being Tossed?

HSR stops my opponent from Searching, even if the word "search" doesn't appear in the ability. So why doesn't 4DC protect my hand from my opponent's discard abilities, even if the word "discard" doesn't appear in the ability?

Gabe · « **Reply #15 on:** September 03, 2019, 11:32:42 AM »

As I mentioned earlier, search is the only "ability" that crosses paths with other abilities. The reason being is that search doesn't do anything by itself and always has to be paired with something else - take, exchange, discard, etc.

Using search as an example or justification as to why you think toss is a discard ability is like comparing apples and oranges. Search is its own thing and unique in that sense.

Josh · « **Reply #16 on:** September 06, 2019, 10:52:25 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on September 03, 2019, 11:32:42 AM

As I mentioned earlier, search is the only "ability" that crosses paths with other abilities. The reason being is that search doesn't do anything by itself and always has to be paired with something else - take, exchange, discard, etc.

So in essence, "search" now describes what other abilities (Take, Exchange, etc) are doing and isn't an ability itself. But we've chosen to keep using the word "search" exclusively on hate cards, instead of creating cards that punish Take abilities or Exchange abilities.

Seems to me that if "search" isn't going to appear on actual search abilities, then we shouldn't put "search" on any other cards either (like Jonah). Because you end up with questions like "Is Toss a discard ability?"

Because "discard" describes what happens in the Toss ability. Part of Toss is literally discarding an enhancement from hand.

(Side note: Why are we trying to make Toss its own unique ability that can't be defined by other existing abilities? Using Instead+Discard+Decrease, you can create a perfect definition of Toss.)

I'm not understanding how you can't see that the two scenarios are exactly the same in form and function. Search describes what Take and Exchange do, so something that punishes/protects from Search also punishes/protects from Take and Exchange abilities. Discard describes what Toss does, so something that punishes/protects from Discard also punishes/protects from Toss.

The Guardian · « **Reply #17 on:** September 06, 2019, 12:27:56 PM »

Quote

(Side note: Why are we trying to make Toss its own unique ability that can't be defined by other existing abilities? Using Instead+Discard+Decrease, you can create a perfect definition of Toss.)

Quote from: Gabe on September 01, 2019, 08:52:29 PM

A while back we worked diligently to “untangle” abilities. IIRC the only exception at the end of that labor of love is search. Some abilities function similarly, or even do the same thing under the right circumstances, but they do not qualify as the same thing.

So I’m pretty certain that toss doesn’t qualify as a discard ability although it does discard.

MMHobbitWW · « **Reply #18 on:** September 06, 2019, 05:50:15 PM »

Quote from: Josh on September 06, 2019, 10:52:25 AM

Quote from: Gabe on September 03, 2019, 11:32:42 AM
As I mentioned earlier, search is the only "ability" that crosses paths with other abilities. The reason being is that search doesn't do anything by itself and always has to be paired with something else - take, exchange, discard, etc.

So in essence, "search" now describes what other abilities (Take, Exchange, etc) are doing and isn't an ability itself. But we've chosen to keep using the word "search" exclusively on hate cards, instead of creating cards that punish Take abilities or Exchange abilities.

Seems to me that if "search" isn't going to appear on actual search abilities, then we shouldn't put "search" on any other cards either (like Jonah). Because you end up with questions like "Is Toss a discard ability?"

Because "discard" describes what happens in the Toss ability. Part of Toss is literally discarding an enhancement from hand.

(Side note: Why are we trying to make Toss its own unique ability that can't be defined by other existing abilities? Using Instead+Discard+Decrease, you can create a perfect definition of Toss.)

I'm not understanding how you can't see that the two scenarios are exactly the same in form and function. Search describes what Take and Exchange do, so something that punishes/protects from Search also punishes/protects from Take and Exchange abilities. Discard describes what Toss does, so something that punishes/protects from Discard also punishes/protects from Toss.

Take is the new search because they want it to be for reasons. Your arguments points out that take is not a great replacement, but it's ok. It's "ok" because search is a perfectly fine keyword AND not only does it take have a misleading connotation it is totally distinct from cards that gain control of your opponents stuff. But your posts make me think you don't really know what side you are arguing for. You're wanting a consistency that breeds more clutter. Ok? great, the Redemption is now consistently more confusing! We have to except that take is a good effort at clearing up clutter on cards, works fine irl, and should not be reversed back to search for obvious reasons.

But yeah not everyone on here has the capacity to understand your arguments. Let's not name any names

Sean · « **Reply #19 on:** September 06, 2019, 07:26:02 PM »

Doesn't the John Promo strictly search?

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #20 on:** September 06, 2019, 08:21:56 PM »

The John promo is a full deck look, not a search.

Sean · « **Reply #21 on:** September 07, 2019, 06:56:03 PM »

Just thinking out loud here. If Search doesn't do anything by itself, doesn't that mean Search is not its own thing (does not exist as an ability) but actually is an intrinsic occurrence that takes place as a byproduct of certain abilities such as Take or discard when the target area is an unknown(facedown)?

kariusvega · « **Reply #22 on:** September 08, 2019, 09:27:04 AM »

Toss has been consistently ruled its own ability which works regardless of protection anyway

I see the argument for “if x is protected” but toss is regardless of protect so does that matter? If the reg doesn’t say that it’s a simple way to resolve this confusion

thecoolguy · « **Reply #23 on:** September 08, 2019, 10:03:12 AM »

I am quite sure toss is its seprate ability like that guys said. Toss isn't a discard ability, discard is a discard ability.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #24 on:** September 08, 2019, 10:28:35 AM »

So an ability that discards isnt a discard ability? That is needlessly confusing

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Author Topic: Is toss a discard ability? (Read 8516 times)

kariusvega