Author Topic: Is toss a discard ability? (Read 8503 times)

kariusvega · « **Reply #25 on:** September 08, 2019, 10:40:51 AM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 08, 2019, 10:28:35 AM

So an ability that discards isnt a discard ability? That is needlessly confusing

Being regardless of protect does it matter?

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #26 on:** September 08, 2019, 10:53:42 AM »

I dont see how protection has anything to do with this, im trying to see if you can search out coliseum with wages, there are more aspects to this than if hand protection stops toss

Gabe · « **Reply #27 on:** September 08, 2019, 10:59:38 AM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 08, 2019, 10:53:42 AM

I dont see how protection has anything to do with this, im trying to see if you can search out coliseum with wages

No, Coliseum doesn't have a discard ability. The abilities on that Fortress are "toss" and "negate".

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #28 on:** September 08, 2019, 11:12:25 AM »

And i still believe toss should be a discard ability and i havent heard a good reason it shouldnt be other than search is messed up and just accept it doesnt set precident on how other abilities should be ruled, which i dont want to accept that Redemption is that messed up and counterintuitive

thecoolguy · « **Reply #29 on:** September 08, 2019, 11:53:13 AM »

Toss is not a discard ability because Toss in itself is its own ability. Toss is just "tossing" the enh not really discarding the enh it is putting it in the discard pile by tossing the enh.

thecoolguy · « **Reply #30 on:** September 08, 2019, 11:56:24 AM »

Because your not discarding the enh you are tossing the enh for the decrease

777Godspeed · « **Reply #31 on:** September 08, 2019, 12:24:38 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 08, 2019, 11:12:25 AM

And i still believe toss should be a discard ability and i havent heard a good reason it shouldnt be other than search is messed up and just accept it doesnt set precident on how other abilities should be ruled, which i dont want to accept that Redemption is that messed up and counterintuitive

Toss effect is governed by game rule.
Discard effect is a special ability.

Godspeed,
Mike

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #32 on:** September 08, 2019, 12:42:39 PM »

No its in the toss ability that it discards, per the definition of toss

777Godspeed · « **Reply #33 on:** September 08, 2019, 03:21:10 PM »

Quote from: 777Godspeed on September 02, 2019, 02:10:04 PM

From the REG:
Toss
Last Updated: 5/7/2019 (v6.0.0)
Released: 3/4/2013
How to Play
● A toss effect allows a player to play an Enhancement in a different way than usual; instead of activating the
numbers or abilities of the Enhancement, the Enhancement is discarded to decrease an opposing character,
regardless of protect or immune effects.

The key to Toss is what I put in bold. Toss, in and of itself, is not a "discard ability" nor is it defined as such.

Godspeed,
Mike

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #34 on:** September 08, 2019, 04:29:57 PM »

Yes, the way you play it is to discard it...

Gabe · « **Reply #35 on:** September 08, 2019, 04:48:23 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 08, 2019, 04:29:57 PM

Yes, the way you play it is to discard it...

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish by belaboring this topic?

777Godspeed · « **Reply #36 on:** September 08, 2019, 04:56:51 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 08, 2019, 04:29:57 PM

Yes, the way you play it is to discard it...

A mechanic that allows Toss to work "in a different way than usual", not a "discard ability" in and of itself...

Godspeed,
Mike

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #37 on:** September 08, 2019, 06:03:52 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 08, 2019, 04:29:57 PM

Yes, the way you play it is to discard it...

If you're continuing this discussion just because you disagree with the Elder's ruling then I cannot help you but if you actually want to understand why the game works this way, I will gladly attempt to explain until you do.

Assuming the latter, think about Dominants. Dominants are discarded immediately when used but no one is advocating for all dominants to be labeled as having discard abilities. Redemption doesn't have unique language for putting cards into the discard pile from different locations so anything that results in a card going to the discard pile has to be called discard. That doesn't mean that everything that results in a card going to the discard pile has to be labeled as a discard ability.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #38 on:** September 08, 2019, 06:41:38 PM »

I would say dominates go to the discard plue the same reason enhancements do after battle: per game rule. Tossed enhancements go to discard pile because an ability discarded them, making it a discard ability. Point to me another case in redemption where something is discarded, and its either discarded by a discard ability or a game rule, becuase right now i dont see anything else in the game that just puts something in the discard pile like toss does now

Im arguing this becuase i see inconsistency in the game on this point and it worries me that the game i love is becoming impossible to understand without a degree in redemption. There will always be a some degree of learning, but the game should alsways be as intuitive as possible. If a card discards something, it should be a discard ability, plain and simple. Either that, or it should be that take(which sets persident for this ruling, as it has been ruled to include a search ability) should just a be a take ability and not inclue other abilities inside of it as it does now (each keyword ability would be only that, even if other abilities function the same) To me this would be the easier way to go about it, but i digress.

I dont mean to be combative, but i will fight for what i think is best for the game and am open to being corrected, as i have many times in the past. I would love this to be explained to me in a way that makes sense without changes having to be made

thecoolguy · « **Reply #39 on:** September 08, 2019, 07:19:37 PM »

So Sep. This Toss ability isn't discarding itself at all. The point of Tossing an enh is to toss the enh then decrease the other character in battle. It doesn't discard the enh it mearly just tosses the enh to the discard pile, to decrease the character. I mean a guy showed you the definition of toss and in nowhere does it say that it discards anything. It says it tosses the enh. please understand Sep that I appreciate that you want to try to stand up for what you think is right for redemption but in this case you have an elder and a clear definition against you.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #40 on:** September 08, 2019, 08:02:03 PM »

It says right in the def of toss the enhancement is discarded to do the decrease. If it was worded that the enhancement was put in the discard pile, that would be a differnet story, but it clearly says it discards the enhancement, which makes it a discard ability. Im not arguing it should say it puts it in the discard pile, thats just side stepping the issue, as the "put into discard pile" would need to be defined, adding another definition to the game, and this would all be just so tossed wasnt considered a discard a ability

thecoolguy · « **Reply #41 on:** September 08, 2019, 08:55:31 PM »

Well what I think we are trying to tell you is that Toss isn't a discard ability because it is called toss.

thecoolguy · « **Reply #42 on:** September 08, 2019, 09:02:06 PM »

Hey sep. I think you have all the best intentions in doing what your doing. But i think that the way your doing it is going about it isn't the best. I think we understand the confusion but we are telling you that it isn't what you think.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #43 on:** September 08, 2019, 10:32:56 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 08, 2019, 08:02:03 PM

If it was worded that the enhancement was put in the discard pile, that would be a differnet story, but it clearly says it discards the enhancement, which makes it a discard ability. Im not arguing it should say it puts it in the discard pile, thats just side stepping the issue, as the "put into discard pile" would need to be defined, adding another definition to the game, and this would all be just so tossed wasnt considered a discard a ability

This is precisely the issue though. The phrase "discard ability" in Redemption has been ruled in this thread to refer specifically to cards that include the word "discard" in the rules text on the card. That's the definition of "discard ability". You are of the opinion that anything with the word "discard" in the ability description should inherently be considered a "discard ability" but that's simply not how it's been defined. I do think that it would be helpful for Redemption to have different language for moving a card to the discard pile from hand vs from play but it doesn't and that's the only thing that could fix this issue while preserving current definitions.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #44 on:** September 08, 2019, 10:42:36 PM »

As far as i can tell there is no def of a discard ability, just a def of discard, so you would have to assume any ability that discards something is a discard ability, and the def of discard is to move something from its current location to the discard pile, which a toss ability does. If all we need to do is officially define a discard ability as an ability with discard in the ability, im ok with that, that makes sense with the current logic and rules in the game, but as of now i see no reason why toss isnt a discard ability other than the elders say so. I cant find the elders ruling a definition of discard ability in this thread, so if i missed it please let me know, and we should have that codified somewhere, as one of the most used cards in the game, wages, hinges on the use of discard abilities, so we should have something concrete to fall back on to define it

TheJaylor · « **Reply #45 on:** September 09, 2019, 12:23:31 AM »

I agree that it is a little confusing to see the REG say "A discard effect moves a card to owner's discard pile" (paraphrased) and that one could easily read "All cards that move a card to a discard pile are discard abilities."

But doing so would not only include toss abilities, but also decrease abilities since they discard characters sometimes. The REG even says the character "is discarded," similar to toss saying the same about the enhancement. And exchange, since sometimes exchange abilities move cards to discard. This is a looser example but hopefully you understand the point. Basically:

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 08, 2019, 10:28:35 AM

So an ability that discards isnt a discard ability? That is needlessly confusing

In some cases, yes.

To your point about it being needlessly confusing, it's actually pretty simple until you're aware that it's a possibility for a card to have an ability that's not explicitly stated on the card, as with search.

A new player would play Wages and not think to grab anything that doesn't say "discard." Then they'd play you and you'd trigger your Jonah after they "take" a card from Reserve, "activate" an artifact from artifact pile, or "play" a fortress from deck, and they would argue that it doesn't say "search" so how can it be a "search ability." You would then explain what a search ability is and that it's the ONLY case because there isn't really a reasonable solution to working it such that it punishes the same exact actions with the same exact keywords.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #46 on:** September 09, 2019, 04:57:48 AM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 08, 2019, 10:42:36 PM

As far as i can tell there is no def of a discard ability, just a def of discard, so you would have to assume any ability that discards something is a discard ability,

Side question for sepjazzwarrior: Are you also advocating that Set Asides played outside of battle are discard abilities?

Quote from: The REG

A set-aside Enhancement can be played outside of battle during the Preparation or Discard Phase if they are
played on a character that can use the Enhancement in the active player’s territory. Set-aside Enhancements
played outside of battle are discarded after the targets are set aside. Set-aside Enhancements played in battle are
treated as regular Enhancements

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #47 on:** September 09, 2019, 06:28:21 AM »

For decrease and set aside enhancements, its both game rules that cause the discard, not a special ability (that being games rules that state that characters with 0 defense are discarded and enhamements are discarded after use). Exchange is harder to explain, but given the current logic i would have to say that if it targets a discard pile it would indeed be a discard ability.

I dont want to be argumentative, so thank you to all who are sticking through this with me, im just trying to make the game make sense.

To me the reasonable solution would be that all abilities, such as take, search, play, etc, are all seperate abilities that dont contain other abilities within themselves. Yes that gets kinda messy for older cards and can make them harder to stop, such as hezzy signant rign not stopping take abilities, but in the end its much simpler and will become much easier over time, as abilities become more and more streamlined. Does anyone know why it was decided to not do it this way?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #48 on:** September 09, 2019, 11:19:21 AM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 08, 2019, 10:42:36 PM

As far as i can tell there is no def of a discard ability

It was defined here in this thread by the Elders ruling that "discard ability" refers to a card with "discard" written in its rules text. This should be in the REG, yes, but I'm sure that will happen eventually.

MMHobbitWW · « **Reply #49 on:** September 09, 2019, 03:31:43 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 08, 2019, 11:12:25 AM

And i still believe toss should be a discard ability and i havent heard a good reason it shouldnt be other than search is messed up and just accept it doesnt set precident on how other abilities should be ruled, which i dont want to accept that Redemption is that messed up and counterintuitive

You're right, there have been no good reasons toss should not be a discard ability given here, because "this is how we want it to be" is not a good reason in-and-of-itself. You must accept that Redemption is very messed up and that making toss a discard ability make is more messed up NOT less. But you're not wrong for asking the question and I don't see your posts as a sign you are critical of the Elders. Being inquisitive is good!

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Author Topic: Is toss a discard ability? (Read 8503 times)

kariusvega