Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Technically yes, but I could also make a case for "use other enhancement" abilities to be additions rather than replacements. Either way, Redemption should have a specific definition for "except" when used in special abilities that is consistent across all usages of it rather than having some cards treated differently.

You can argue that but that's not what "except" means in English which is the only definition we have since Redemption doesn't have its own definition of the word.

ex·cept
ikˈsept
preposition
1. not including; other than.
<the sentence example was a bit inappropriate>
synonyms:   excluding, not including, excepting, omitting, not counting, but, besides, apart from, aside from, barring, bar, other than, saving; More
antonyms:   including

conjunction
conjunction: except
1. used before a statement that forms an exception to one just made.
"I didn't tell him anything, except that I needed the money"
archaic
unless.
"she never offered advice, except it were asked of her"

verbformal
verb: except; 3rd person present: excepts; past tense: excepted; past participle: excepted; gerund or present participle: excepting
1. specify as not included in a category or group; exclude.
"he excepted from his criticism a handful of distinguished writers"
synonyms:   exclude, omit, leave out, count out, disregard;

Technically yes, but I could also make a case for "use other enhancement" abilities to be additions rather than replacements. Either way, Redemption should have a specific definition for "except" when used in special abilities that is consistent across all usages of it rather than having some cards treated differently.

You can argue that but that's not what "except" means in English which is the only definition we have since Redemption doesn't have its own definition of the word.

ex·cept
ikˈsept
preposition
1. not including; other than.
<the sentence example was a bit inappropriate>
synonyms:   excluding, not including, excepting, omitting, not counting, but, besides, apart from, aside from, barring, bar, other than, saving; More
antonyms:   including

conjunction
conjunction: except
1. used before a statement that forms an exception to one just made.
"I didn't tell him anything, except that I needed the money"
archaic
unless.
"she never offered advice, except it were asked of her"

verbformal
verb: except; 3rd person present: excepts; past tense: excepted; past participle: excepted; gerund or present participle: excepting
1. specify as not included in a category or group; exclude.
"he excepted from his criticism a handful of distinguished writers"
synonyms:   exclude, omit, leave out, count out, disregard;

Other than is listed as an acceptable definition.

If we have to use a food example try this on for size:

I have a friend who is allergic to nuts. He says he can eat any sandwich except peanut butter. Can I then give him a PBJ because it has another topping in addition to the Peanut Butter?

That is a perfectly acceptable use of grammar. Try this one on for size.

In my seasonings cupboard, I have pepper, salt, Morton's Seasoning Blend (onion, garlic, salt, pepper and other natural spices), oregano, and basil. My mother's secret chicken recipe calls for all of these things, except pepper. There will still be pepper due to the seasoning blend, but I won't be adding straight pepper.

Redemption has never been good with English though, which is why we need definitions. I'm a bit shocked that you guys think that except is a restrict ability, but okay.

And now I'm hungry.

If we have to use a food example try this on for size:

I have a friend who is allergic to nuts. He says he can eat any sandwich except peanut butter. Can I then give him a PBJ because it has another topping in addition to the Peanut Butter?

You're going the wrong way with the analogy.  Being allergic to peanut butter, and putting peanut butter together with jelly, does not make a person allergic to jelly.

There is nothing shocking about 'except' being inclusive or exclusive, as it can perfectly be either. Its just that Redemption needs to define which it is.

This.  I could understand it ruled either way.  But until such a ruling exists, I have to say that Zimri bands to FW.

Quote from: jmhartz on March 21, 2014, 06:56:54 PM

Quote from: Praeceps on March 21, 2014, 05:55:04 PM

If we have to use a food example try this on for size:

I have a friend who is allergic to nuts. He says he can eat any sandwich except peanut butter. Can I then give him a PBJ because it has another topping in addition to the Peanut Butter?

You're going the wrong way with the analogy.  Being allergic to peanut butter, and putting peanut butter together with jelly, does not make a person allergic to jelly.

It is, however, a great analogy of ignoring a character. Ignore brown brigade and all of Foreign Wives is ignored.
Banding brings things into battle though, it doesn't keep them out, so it doesn't totally apply.

Okay let me put it this way.

Zimri can band to (eat a sandwich) any female EC except (deathly allergic to) brown (PB) brigade. Can Zimri band to (eat) Jezebel who is both brown (PB) and Black (jelly) simply because he would thus be selecting her for her black brigade (jelly half)?

Other than is listed as an acceptable definition.

.......

I'm a bit shocked that you guys think that except is a restrict ability, but okay.

To the first statement, that's true. I never said except and other than were mutually exclusive. The context is what matters and the context of ZaS is different than the context of Zimri.

To the second, I don't remember ever saying except is a "restrict." Except is "exclusive," yes, but not necessarily a "restrict."

In the thread on the playtester side, 6 elders (myself, RDT, ProfA, ProfU, Gabe and Bryon) have weighed in. 4 agree the band is legal and 2 say it is not--so for now, the band is a legal play and I will do my best to encourage other elders to weigh in and/or see if those who thought it should not be allowed believe it warrants further discussion.