Author Topic: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown? (MOD: ELDER RULING AWAITED)  (Read 5191 times)

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown?
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2014, 05:28:50 PM »
+2
In your Ashdod example I would say that no they can't use Magicians' Snakes because it has one of the excepted brigades.
So, just to clarify, you'd rule that you can't play Romans Destroy Jerusalem on an emperor if Rome is in play.

"Your emperors have first strike and may use N.T. Enhancements of any evil brigade except orange."

I would argue that the ability is not restricting anything. It's allowing things to be played, with the things it's allowing to be played being N.T. enhancements of any evil brigade (except orange). So that means it's allowing you to play pale green, brown, black, gold, crimson, and/or gray brigades. In the same way, Zimri is allowing you to band to an evil character that is pale green, orange, black, gold, crimson, or gray brigade.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 05:36:04 PM by Westy »

browarod

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Re: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown?
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2014, 05:36:22 PM »
0
Technically yes, but I could also make a case for "use other enhancement" abilities to be additions rather than replacements. Either way, Redemption should have a specific definition for "except" when used in special abilities that is consistent across all usages of it rather than having some cards treated differently.

You can argue that but that's not what "except" means in English which is the only definition we have since Redemption doesn't have its own definition of the word.

ex·cept
ikˈsept
preposition
1. not including; other than.
<the sentence example was a bit inappropriate>
synonyms:   excluding, not including, excepting, omitting, not counting, but, besides, apart from, aside from, barring, bar, other than, saving; More
antonyms:   including

conjunction
conjunction: except
1. used before a statement that forms an exception to one just made.
"I didn't tell him anything, except that I needed the money"
archaic
unless.
"she never offered advice, except it were asked of her"

verbformal
verb: except; 3rd person present: excepts; past tense: excepted; past participle: excepted; gerund or present participle: excepting
1. specify as not included in a category or group; exclude.
"he excepted from his criticism a handful of distinguished writers"
synonyms:   exclude, omit, leave out, count out, disregard;
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 05:41:49 PM by browarod »

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown?
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2014, 05:55:04 PM »
0
If we have to use a food example try this on for size:

I have a friend who is allergic to nuts. He says he can eat any sandwich except peanut butter. Can I then give him a PBJ because it has another topping in addition to the Peanut Butter?

Just one more thing...

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown?
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2014, 06:06:54 PM »
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Technically yes, but I could also make a case for "use other enhancement" abilities to be additions rather than replacements. Either way, Redemption should have a specific definition for "except" when used in special abilities that is consistent across all usages of it rather than having some cards treated differently.

You can argue that but that's not what "except" means in English which is the only definition we have since Redemption doesn't have its own definition of the word.

ex·cept
ikˈsept
preposition
1. not including; other than.
<the sentence example was a bit inappropriate>
synonyms:   excluding, not including, excepting, omitting, not counting, but, besides, apart from, aside from, barring, bar, other than, saving; More
antonyms:   including

conjunction
conjunction: except
1. used before a statement that forms an exception to one just made.
"I didn't tell him anything, except that I needed the money"
archaic
unless.
"she never offered advice, except it were asked of her"

verbformal
verb: except; 3rd person present: excepts; past tense: excepted; past participle: excepted; gerund or present participle: excepting
1. specify as not included in a category or group; exclude.
"he excepted from his criticism a handful of distinguished writers"
synonyms:   exclude, omit, leave out, count out, disregard;
Other than is listed as an acceptable definition.

If we have to use a food example try this on for size:

I have a friend who is allergic to nuts. He says he can eat any sandwich except peanut butter. Can I then give him a PBJ because it has another topping in addition to the Peanut Butter?
That is a perfectly acceptable use of grammar. Try this one on for size.

In my seasonings cupboard, I have pepper, salt, Morton's Seasoning Blend (onion, garlic, salt, pepper and other natural spices), oregano, and basil. My mother's secret chicken recipe calls for all of these things, except pepper. There will still be pepper due to the seasoning blend, but I won't be adding straight pepper.

Redemption has never been good with English though, which is why we need definitions. I'm a bit shocked that you guys think that except is a restrict ability, but okay.

And now I'm hungry.

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown?
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2014, 06:33:16 PM »
+1
There is nothing shocking about 'except' being inclusive or exclusive, as it can perfectly be either. Its just that Redemption needs to define which it is.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown?
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2014, 06:56:54 PM »
0
If we have to use a food example try this on for size:

I have a friend who is allergic to nuts. He says he can eat any sandwich except peanut butter. Can I then give him a PBJ because it has another topping in addition to the Peanut Butter?

You're going the wrong way with the analogy.  Being allergic to peanut butter, and putting peanut butter together with jelly, does not make a person allergic to jelly.

There is nothing shocking about 'except' being inclusive or exclusive, as it can perfectly be either. Its just that Redemption needs to define which it is.

This.  I could understand it ruled either way.  But until such a ruling exists, I have to say that Zimri bands to FW.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 06:59:17 PM by jmhartz »
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown?
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2014, 07:00:01 PM »
0
If we have to use a food example try this on for size:

I have a friend who is allergic to nuts. He says he can eat any sandwich except peanut butter. Can I then give him a PBJ because it has another topping in addition to the Peanut Butter?

You're going the wrong way with the analogy.  Being allergic to peanut butter, and putting peanut butter together with jelly, does not make a person allergic to jelly.
It is, however, a great analogy of ignoring a character. Ignore brown brigade and all of Foreign Wives is ignored.
Banding brings things into battle though, it doesn't keep them out, so it doesn't totally apply.

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown?
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2014, 07:45:31 PM »
0
If we have to use a food example try this on for size:

I have a friend who is allergic to nuts. He says he can eat any sandwich except peanut butter. Can I then give him a PBJ because it has another topping in addition to the Peanut Butter?

You're going the wrong way with the analogy.  Being allergic to peanut butter, and putting peanut butter together with jelly, does not make a person allergic to jelly.
It is, however, a great analogy of ignoring a character. Ignore brown brigade and all of Foreign Wives is ignored.
Banding brings things into battle though, it doesn't keep them out, so it doesn't totally apply.

Okay let me put it this way.

Zimri can band to (eat a sandwich) any female EC except (deathly allergic to) brown (PB) brigade. Can Zimri band to (eat) Jezebel who is both brown (PB) and Black (jelly) simply because he would thus be selecting her for her black brigade (jelly half)?
Just one more thing...

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown?
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2014, 08:27:47 PM »
0
If we have to use a food example try this on for size:

I have a friend who is allergic to nuts. He says he can eat any sandwich except peanut butter. Can I then give him a PBJ because it has another topping in addition to the Peanut Butter?

You're going the wrong way with the analogy.  Being allergic to peanut butter, and putting peanut butter together with jelly, does not make a person allergic to jelly.
It is, however, a great analogy of ignoring a character. Ignore brown brigade and all of Foreign Wives is ignored.
Banding brings things into battle though, it doesn't keep them out, so it doesn't totally apply.

Okay let me put it this way.

Zimri can band to (eat a sandwich) any female EC except (deathly allergic to) brown (PB) brigade. Can Zimri band to (eat) Jezebel who is both brown (PB) and Black (jelly) simply because he would thus be selecting her for her black brigade (jelly half)?
Sure he can, he'll just die.

browarod

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Re: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown?
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2014, 08:36:05 PM »
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Other than is listed as an acceptable definition.

.......

I'm a bit shocked that you guys think that except is a restrict ability, but okay.
To the first statement, that's true. I never said except and other than were mutually exclusive. The context is what matters and the context of ZaS is different than the context of Zimri.

To the second, I don't remember ever saying except is a "restrict." Except is "exclusive," yes, but not necessarily a "restrict."

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown?
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2014, 08:36:27 PM »
+1
Alright, I'm locking this one for now, the ruling is up to the Elders, but this is simultaneously not going anywhere while just going round and round and honestly becoming hard to follow.  Especially when everyone brings up food analogies and I am hungry.

I think all sides have posted their points well, and we'll just have to wait to see what the conclusive ruling is.

By the way, if we could stop bringing real-life 'analogies' up (guilty here as well of responding in kind with one previously), since we have shown they can be used for any side of an argument without actually being relevant, that'd be cool ;)  They seem to muddy things up more than anything sadly.

If the Elders could post here if there is an interim ruling we should use, and let us know when there is a final ruling (which I will add to the FAQ), that'd be super swell.  If any of you feel this should be unlocked, please do so :)

EDIT: Also added this thread to the list HERE
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 08:40:51 PM by Redoubter »

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown? (MOD: ELDER RULING AWAITED)
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2014, 04:23:02 AM »
+2
In the thread on the playtester side, 6 elders (myself, RDT, ProfA, ProfU, Gabe and Bryon) have weighed in. 4 agree the band is legal and 2 say it is not--so for now, the band is a legal play and I will do my best to encourage other elders to weigh in and/or see if those who thought it should not be allowed believe it warrants further discussion.
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