Author Topic: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown? (MOD: ELDER RULING AWAITED) (Read 5199 times)

TheJaylor · « **on:** March 20, 2014, 01:23:01 PM »

Can Zimri, son of Salu band to Foreign Wives?

Zimri, son of Salu
5/5 Brown EC
Interrupt Wall of Protection. May band to a female Evil Character of any brigade except brown to decrease a Hero in play by 0/6.

My guess is no because it says "except brown" while she is brown but she also has other brigades so I'm not certain.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #1 on:** March 20, 2014, 01:47:12 PM »

I would agree that because her brigade contains the color brown that she cannot be targeted by Zimri.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #2 on:** March 20, 2014, 02:00:01 PM »

Yes, he can. If he said "non-brown brigade", then he couldn't, but basically it plays like Zadok Anoints Solomon, where you're targeting any brigade other than the specified one, but if the specified one happens to be there as well, it's okay.

Drrek · « **Reply #3 on:** March 20, 2014, 02:23:15 PM »

This was ProfessorAlstad's post in the thread the last time this came up

Quote from: Professoralstad on December 04, 2013, 07:11:37 PM

Adding an additional example of food toppings/fillings does not clarify the position any further.

"May band to a female Evil Character of any brigade except brown" is shorthand for "May band to a black, crimson, gold, gray, orange or pale green female Evil Character". just as "May search for an O.T. good card of any brigade other than teal is shorthand for "May search for an O.T. blue, gold, green, purple, red, silver or white good card." Assuming there were a limited number of donut fillings/pizza toppings, similar logic would apply.

Could it have been worded better? Certainly. But it is perfectly logical for it to work as I have suggested, it meshes well with previous rulings on Zadok Anoints, and it is by no means OP'd. Hopefully another Elder can come in and confirm it, but until that happens, for any tournaments that I am involved with wherein my ruling is asked for, everyone can use this as a reference. I can assure you that my position won't change.

And this is Prof Underwood's post from the end of that thread

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 09, 2013, 08:53:59 PM

Quote from: Redoubter on December 04, 2013, 09:08:36 PM
"With any brigade other than teal" literally means that it just has to have any other brigade, but it doesn't exclude teal cards.

"Of any brigade except brown" means that it cannot have brown.
This makes sense to me. I'll start a discussion with the other elders to see if we can come to a consensus.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #4 on:** March 20, 2014, 02:37:15 PM »

Hmm... so I assume then that they never posted again on that thread about a consensus being reached...?

So far we have:
For (Zimri CAN band to Wives):
Westy
Professoralstad
ChristianSoldier
YMT
jmhartz

Against (Zimri CANNOT band to Wives):
RTSmaniac
Prof Underwood
Redoubter
Browarod
AJ

browarod · « **Reply #5 on:** March 20, 2014, 03:07:43 PM »

I believe I was on the Against side last time agreeing with what Redoubter posted in the quote above. Zimri reads as being exclusive whereas cards like ZAS do not, grammatically.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #6 on:** March 20, 2014, 03:52:14 PM »

except and other than seem very simular to me.

Redoubter · « **Reply #7 on:** March 20, 2014, 04:42:59 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on March 20, 2014, 03:52:14 PM

except and other than seem very simular to me.

Not really, one is "exclusive" while the other is "inclusive".

Zadok Anoints requires that it have a brigade "other than teal". Quite literally any card with a brigade other than teal, even if it also has teal, meets that qualification.

On the other hand, saying "of any brigade except brown" means that anything with brown is excepted, not allowable. Anything else is fine, 'except' that.

Different meanings, different result, and should be different rulings.

HOWEVER. If this gets ruled the other way, I won't be heartbroken, so long as we have a consistent rule on these words!

Any word on that Elders?

The Guardian · « **Reply #8 on:** March 20, 2014, 04:46:06 PM »

This was being discussed on the Elder side awhile ago but a consensus was not reached at that time--I will bring that thread up again and see if we can resolve it.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #9 on:** March 20, 2014, 05:20:31 PM »

I was rather confident with this because in my recent RMG video series (which will not be continuing due to my computer breaking) I looked it up. here here and here, although that middle one just references that last one with no disagreements.

These are all the rulings on it I can find, but they're all consistent.

Redoubter · « **Reply #10 on:** March 20, 2014, 05:27:59 PM »

Quote from: Westy on March 20, 2014, 05:20:31 PM

I was rather confident with this because in my recent RMG video series (which will not be continuing due to my computer breaking) I looked it up. here here and here, although that middle one just references that last one with no disagreements.

These are all the rulings on it I can find, but they're all consistent.

Looks like you missed this one referenced earlier. The ones you posted only had 1 Elder post, and very few posters overall, while this one did show that there may be some disagreement (and Guardian confirmed that here).

AJ · « **Reply #11 on:** March 20, 2014, 05:32:26 PM »

It makes no sense that Zimri could band to Wives. He says "except brown" so it doesn't make any sense.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #12 on:** March 20, 2014, 06:05:01 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on March 20, 2014, 05:27:59 PM

Quote from: Westy on March 20, 2014, 05:20:31 PM
I was rather confident with this because in my recent RMG video series (which will not be continuing due to my computer breaking) I looked it up. here here and here, although that middle one just references that last one with no disagreements.

These are all the rulings on it I can find, but they're all consistent.

Looks like you missed this one referenced earlier. The ones you posted only had 1 Elder post, and very few posters overall, while this one did show that there may be some disagreement (and Guardian confirmed that here).

Yeah, sorry, I meant to say could find. That thread didn't exist when I built my Gates of Samaria deck.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #13 on:** March 20, 2014, 06:30:55 PM »

The entire ruling is dependent on where the "except brown" is acting on, based on the wording I would say the "except brown" is acting on the brigade condition, therefore Zimri can band to a female evil character of any (brigade except brown), which means you check if the female evil character has a brigade that is not brown, and therefore can be banded to.

I do disagree with Redoubter's suggestion that "other than X" and "except X" are functionally different, since both exclude X

Of course this is my interpretation of how the card is ruled based on how it was explained to me when I asked about it when it was more relevant to my decks, now I mostly want a definite ruling.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #14 on:** March 20, 2014, 07:26:48 PM »

I think we should just have one ruling for these situations regardless of the wording. If any color works, then the whole card works. I think we all agree that Zimri can band to a Crimson EC, for instance. Since Wives is Crimson, the band should work.

browarod · « **Reply #15 on:** March 21, 2014, 01:02:44 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 20, 2014, 07:26:48 PM

I think we should just have one ruling for these situations regardless of the wording.

Except that wording is important and matters. This is a card game based on special abilities, after all.

Josh · « **Reply #16 on:** March 21, 2014, 12:31:10 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on March 20, 2014, 04:42:59 PM

Quote from: RTSmaniac on March 20, 2014, 03:52:14 PM
except and other than seem very simular to me.
Not really, one is "exclusive" while the other is "inclusive".

Zadok Anoints requires that it have a brigade "other than teal". Quite literally any card with a brigade other than teal, even if it also has teal, meets that qualification.

On the other hand, saying "of any brigade except brown" means that anything with brown is excepted, not allowable. Anything else is fine, 'except' that.

I have to disagree with this. "Except" and "Other than" sound exactly alike. Example:

"I like all pizza toppings except anchovies" and "I like all pizza toppings other than anchovies" mean exactly the same thing. All pizza toppings except anchovies are "liked"; anchovies are "not liked". In either case, you are both describing what you do like and what you don't like. The key, though, is that you are describing what you do like. The fact that you don't like anchovies doesn't affect the fact that you like pepperoni; and if there was a pizza that had pepperoni and anchovies, you might not like the pizza itself, but you still like pepperoni.

In Zimri's case, "May band to a female evil character of any brigade except brown", even though it uses the word "except", is describing what Zimri can do, not what he can't do. That's why the ability starts "May band...". Not being able to band to Brown doesn't affect Zimri's ability to band to FW, because FW is fully Crimson, and Crimson is one of the pizza toppings Zimri likes.

browarod · « **Reply #17 on:** March 21, 2014, 12:39:41 PM »

The problem with that example is that you're allowing for the person that doesn't like anchovies to eat a pizza with anchovies and pepperoni because it has a topping that isn't anchovies. I don't know about you but if I don't like something I won't eat it regardless of what else is on there.

Bryon · « **Reply #18 on:** March 21, 2014, 12:45:32 PM »

I can certainly see both sides. In the last elder discussion, I argued that banding to a part-brown EC seemed counter-intuitive. Most (or at least half) of the players here in this thread seem to think that he should not be able to band to brown, based on that word "except."

But the main thing he was known for was for 'banding' to a foreign woman. So, I'd be happy if he can band to part-brown, for the sake of the theme.

I am sorry we didn't word that card clearer.

browarod · « **Reply #19 on:** March 21, 2014, 12:47:11 PM »

Zimri reprint!

"Interrupt fortresses. May band to Foreign Wives or a female Evil Character of any brigade except brown to decrease a Hero by 0/6."

In all seriousness, though, there are plenty of cards that were intended to work one way but don't because of an error in wording (*cough*Split Altar*cough*). I don't think we should start making exceptions. If "except" is ruled to be inclusive and not exclusive that's one thing because all excepts would then be consistently the same, but we shouldn't be treating individual cards differently.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #20 on:** March 21, 2014, 01:38:23 PM »

I would argue that you're targeting any brigade except brown. Coincidentally, if brown is included, then it's fine.

Example. Ashdod, same wording.
"While this Site is occupied, your Philistine Evil Characters may use O.T. Enhancements of any evil brigade except orange and pale green."

Now, can I play a multicolor enhancement, or is it restricting me from playing any enhancement with orange brigade? Can I play Magician's Snakes, which is half gold, half pale green? It seems much more obvious (at least, to me) in this example that the answer is yes.

browarod · « **Reply #21 on:** March 21, 2014, 02:06:03 PM »

So King Belshazzar can band to Nebby, then? Same wording - May band to a Babylonian (except a King).

In your Ashdod example I would say that no they can't use Magicians' Snakes because it has one of the excepted brigades.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #22 on:** March 21, 2014, 02:18:27 PM »

The cases of King Belshazzar and Ashdod are different, in the case of King Belshazzar the except X is applying to the Babylonian (which is short hand for Babylonian Character) so that it means a Babylonian Character that is not a king.

In the Ashdod Example the except is being applied to the brigade, not the enhancement, so it is saying, may play an enhancement of any (brigade except Pale Green and Orange), therefore it just checks if the card is a brigade except Pale Green or Orange, and since (say Magician's Snakes) is a brigade that is not Pale Green or Orange (it is gold), the fact that it is Pale Green shouldn't be an issue.

Basically if you wanted to exclude a brigade entirely you would have to have the exception on the Character or Enhancement, not on the brigade, so to make Ashdod not allow partially Pale Green or Zimri to not allow partially brown characters it should have been written as: "Non-Pale Green or Orange Enhancements." or "Non-Brown Female Evil Character"

browarod · « **Reply #23 on:** March 21, 2014, 02:24:22 PM »

Why does referring to a card's type versus a card's identifiers change how you're "applying" targeting to it? (especially since type is basically just a kind of identifier)

Also, Zimri DOES say evil character, just earlier in the sentence. I don't see how they are not equivalent. (not to mention you're expanding some shorthands but not others)

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #24 on:** March 21, 2014, 04:42:06 PM »

Quote from: browarod on March 21, 2014, 02:24:22 PM

Why does referring to a card's type versus a card's identifiers change how you're "applying" targeting to it? (especially since type is basically just a kind of identifier)

Also, Zimri DOES say evil character, just earlier in the sentence. I don't see how they are not equivalent. (not to mention you're expanding some shorthands but not others)

First of all, this is my interpretation, and I have little problem with it not being ruled this way.

Secondly, I'm applying the exception to where I think it makes most sense in the sentence, of course Zimri does say evil character, but the exception, according to my interpretation, is applied to the brigade, since based on my understanding of sentence structure and game rules that's where it should apply to. It's not about card types, identifiers or targeting. The fact that the evil character is earlier in the sentence is the point.

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Author Topic: Is Not Foreign Wives Brown? (MOD: ELDER RULING AWAITED) (Read 5199 times)

Warrior_Monk

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