Author Topic: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?  (Read 3007 times)

Offline Isildur

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Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« on: February 21, 2010, 05:26:44 PM »
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Uh Yeah title says it all. Kot a beast? And what is False Shepard any ways? Are Stone Throwers Pharisees or something like that?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 05:28:58 PM by Isildur »
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Is Kot a Beast?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2010, 05:30:30 PM »
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A beast is a defined as a demon that is in the form of an animal (even if it's a crazy, messed up looking animal like a ten-headed dragon). King of Tyrus doesn't qualify. So the answer is no.

A false shepherd is a teacher/pastor/mentor who leads his flock astray. So basically any leader of a cult/false religion etc.

The stone throwers are not ruled as Pharisees, I think because the group was a mob of people, and the Pharisees were probably just a part of it. But I've never been really clear on that.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 05:36:08 PM by Professoralstad »
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Offline sk

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Re: Is Kot a Beast?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2010, 05:54:58 PM »
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The stone throwers are not ruled as Pharisees, I think because the group was a mob of people, and the Pharisees were probably just a part of it. But I've never been really clear on that.

That's it, exactly.
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Offline Bryon

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2010, 06:05:33 PM »
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What does the context of the reference say?

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2010, 07:10:48 PM »
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The reference is John 8:7, from this incident:

Quote
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

   But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

 9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

 11"No one, sir," she said.
      "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

The only people mentioned as bringing the woman to be stoned are "the teachers of the law and the Pharisees." So, I'm still not very clear why Stone Throwers aren't Pharisees.
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Offline Bryon

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2010, 02:37:08 AM »
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I'd call them Pharisees.  :)

Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2010, 06:39:00 AM »
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So the passage "the teachers of the law and the Pharisees" is referring twice to the same group rather than two different groups? In other words when we see the phrase "teachers of the law" does that automatically equate to "Pharisees?"

Offline sk

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2010, 06:34:29 PM »
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I'd call them Pharisees.  :)

Strange... you're the person who told me they weren't.   ;)
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Offline Isildur

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2010, 06:57:46 PM »
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Is there a chance it could be both Phari. and Sadd.?
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Offline Bryon

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2010, 10:52:21 PM »
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So the passage "the teachers of the law and the Pharisees" is referring twice to the same group rather than two different groups? In other words when we see the phrase "teachers of the law" does that automatically equate to "Pharisees?"
From the passage, it is clear that at least some of the Stone Throwers were Pharisees.  Others were teachers of the law, some of which may have been Pharisees, too.  Given the fact that they are listed separately, it is likely that some of the Stone Throwers were not Pharisees.  But I'd still have no problem labeling the Stone Throwers card Pharisees.  If it makes you feel better, consider those the ones who were Pharisees (since it is clear that at least some were).

I'd call them Pharisees.  :)

Strange... you're the person who told me they weren't.   ;)
I was giving you the REG answer, not what I would have preferred.  :)

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2010, 12:05:01 AM »
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Let it be noted that the REG currently states that:

Quote
Stone Throwers is not considered a Pharisee; they were part of a crowd stirred up by the Pharisees.

So this is official until it is changed, of course.
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Offline frisian9

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2010, 08:59:51 AM »
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Stone Throwers were not necessarily ALL Pharisees, and cannot be proven that they were ALL Pharisees. In fact, the Bible and church history show that teachers of the law are not Pharisees, hence they are named separately. 

  • If it is possible that one in the crowd was not, then they are cannot be considered all Pharisees.
  • Teachers of the law were Levites in the OT period and scribes in the NT period. Neither title or group are considered Pharisees.
  • "Scribe" is a title or office, "teachers of the law" is a description of what a scribe does. They are synonymous, i.e., scribes were the teachers of the law.
  • In the NT scribes or teachers of the law were often associated with the Pharisees, but were NOT simultaneously Pharisees. If you search scripture, you'll see many references to "scribes and pharisees", which I believe is being restated in the verse associated with Stone Throwers.
  • Why would the two be named separately if the teachers of the law were Pharisees?

I'm pretty sure we discussed this several years ago when the current status was decided, hence not categorized in the REG as Pharisees. It was not an oversight.

Sometimes a little research outside the game helps.

Mike
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2010, 10:32:51 AM »
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Stone Throwers were not necessarily ALL Pharisees, and cannot be proven that they were ALL Pharisees. In fact, the Bible and church history show that teachers of the law are not Pharisees, hence they are named separately. 

  • If it is possible that one in the crowd was not, then they are cannot be considered all Pharisees.
  • Teachers of the law were Levites in the OT period and scribes in the NT period. Neither title or group are considered Pharisees.
  • "Scribe" is a title or office, "teachers of the law" is a description of what a scribe does. They are synonymous, i.e., scribes were the teachers of the law.
  • In the NT scribes or teachers of the law were often associated with the Pharisees, but were NOT simultaneously Pharisees. If you search scripture, you'll see many references to "scribes and pharisees", which I believe is being restated in the verse associated with Stone Throwers.
  • Why would the two be named separately if the teachers of the law were Pharisees?

I'm pretty sure we discussed this several years ago when the current status was decided, hence not categorized in the REG as Pharisees. It was not an oversight.

Sometimes a little research outside the game helps.

Mike

There you have it.
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Offline Bryon

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2010, 12:57:48 PM »
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I still hold to the opinion that, while the reference refers to the Stone Throwers being at least part Pharisees (though not all), it would not be wrong to say that the three dudes pictured on the card were some of the Pharisee Stone Throwers.  However, we do not need to change that ruling... yet.  ;)

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2010, 01:02:09 PM »
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Perhaps a modified reprint?

Stoners
6/6 Grey Evil Character
-Pharisees, Generic, Male-
"If another Pharisee is in play, Discard an N.T. Evil card from hand to set a Hero aside for 5 turns. Then go get some chips."
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline Bryon

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2010, 01:08:17 PM »
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Well, ... at least you got the chips part right. 

Offline STAMP

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2010, 01:18:59 PM »
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Are the chips free, or do you have to pay the cost (discard) to get both benefits? 
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Offline SirNobody

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2010, 09:06:40 PM »
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Hey,

I agree with Mike.

I also find it quite ironic that the reference used for stone throwers is talking about people that didn't throw stones.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offline stefferweffer

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2010, 05:53:23 PM »
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That's what I was thinking too!  Seems like a better passage would be Acts 7 when Stephen was stoned, or even later in Acts when Paul was stoned.

Perhaps this card should be renamed "Group of men, some of whom were probably pharisees, who were on the verge of throwing stones."  :)

Offline Bryon

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2010, 05:55:18 PM »
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LOL.

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2010, 06:16:16 PM »
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That's what I was thinking too!  Seems like a better passage would be Acts 7 when Stephen was stoned, or even later in Acts when Paul was stoned.

Perhaps this card should be renamed "Group of men, some of whom were probably pharisees, who were on the verge of throwing stones."  :)

Post of the thread folks.

Offline frisian9

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2010, 09:24:02 AM »
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Putting "Pharisees" in the identifier line is exactly what would make the ruling the other way. Since it is a game, we don't have to be so historically-precise.

Too bad we didn't use an identifier line 10 years a go. I guess we didn't have a palantir. Imagine the few questions we'd all have today. Sigh.

Mike
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Is Kot a Beast/What is False Shepard/What is Stone Throwers?
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2010, 12:47:26 PM »
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Identifiers and the definition of negate spring to mind as things that were sadly missed earlier in the game.

 


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