Author Topic: Is it ever too late to negate?  (Read 4972 times)

Offline SignoftheStar

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Is it ever too late to negate?
« on: July 24, 2016, 11:15:11 AM »
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This is a question I've had for a little while now, and I can't come to a satisfactory answer. I'm sure there IS an answer, but I just can't be sure.

Is it ever too late to negate?

I recently discovered (correct me if I'm wrong) that one of the many benefits of the Armor of God is that a FBTN Evil Character, like King of Tyrus, won't get the chance to negate it. The Breastplate of Righteousness allows you to negate Characters from X brigades, so King of Tyrus gets prevented before he comes into battle to negate you. King of Tyrus can't use his negate ability because that ability was prevented before he could use it.

But then I started to think: how do you treat certain abilities when they're negated? If you negate a draw or search ability, do you shuffle the drawn/searched for cards back into the deck? What about if you negate a reveal ability?
Then just today Watchman492 asked me a related question: if an ability that brings other cards into battle is negated, do the special abilities of the cards brought into battle resolve or not, and do they stay in battle or not? Watchman had the acumen to ask a particularly messy one.

At present, this would be hypothetical.
Let's say we have this Hero who has an interrupt-draw X-play next ability.
This character draws an interrupt-draw X-play next Enhancement and plays it.
Now lets say, for the sake of making this as messy as possible, he draws a second interrupt-draw X-play next Enhancement and plays it as well.
Now lets say he draws some Enhancement that makes him immune to Humans and plays it
Now he gets blocked by Centurion at Jerusalem- negate non-Roman Characters. (Let's assume our Hero isn't Roman.)
...so now what?
Surely, the Hero's draw must be negated, but are the Enhancements also negated? Not only have they been played, but they've resolved, and nothing is negating them, only the card that brought them into battle. Does that mean they are treated as if they were never put in battle at all?
Now, the way I understand it, even if a card leaves battle (The Angel Under the Oak, The Angel with the Secret Name, The Angel of the Winds), its special ability activates and resolves by virtue of its entering into battle at all. By that logic, even if the Hero is negated, the draws and plays on the Enhancements must resolve, and our Hero would be immune to Centurion. But what about the cards that the Hero drew with his own ability? If negated draw abilities shuffle the drawn cards back into the deck, does that mean the first Enhancement gets shuffled? Do they all get shuffled?
What actually happens here?
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kariusvega

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2016, 11:49:14 AM »
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play abilities are cbi so the cards drawn may be put back but the immunity would stick

Offline kram1138

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2016, 12:51:32 PM »
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play abilities are cbi so the cards drawn may be put back but the immunity would stick

Play abilities are CBI, but the enhancements played by them can still be negated. Since the drawing of the first ITB + draw + play next was negated, it would be cascade negated. The play part of it is CBI, but the draw isn't. Since the second ITB + draw + play was also drawn by the ability of the first, which was negated by the negation of the first draw, it would also be cascade negated. The same would apply to the immunity, so I think it should be negated. I don't think the immunity would stick. I could be wrong though.
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2016, 01:39:29 PM »
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Quote
how do you treat certain abilities when they're negated? If you negate a draw or search ability, do you shuffle the drawn/searched for cards back into the deck? What about if you negate a reveal ability?

If a draw/search/reveal ability is negated, cards are returned to their original location.  In the case of draw, they're not shuffled into the deck - they should be returned to the draw location (top/bottom) in their original order, if possible, otherwise they're shuffled together and placed in that location.

Quote
if an ability that brings other cards into battle is negated, do the special abilities of the cards brought into battle resolve or not, and do they stay in battle or not?

The cards brought into battle don't resolve and don't remain in battle, unless they can't be interrupted/negated.  The particular following scenario is messy because the draw can be negated, but the play can't be.  And it's further complicated because everything played was drawn instead of already being in the holder's hand.  Anything that was in the holder's hand before the draws wouldn't be cascade-negated.

I see 2 scenarios:
1) The draw abilities are cascade negated, so the drawn cards (except those played via play abilities) are returned to the draw location either in order or shuffled together, and the immunity is negated.
2) Only the hero's draw is negated, so only the cards drawn from his ability (except the one played) are returned to deck, and the immunity remains.

I'm pretty sure it's 1), but negating a draw-play is an scenario that's not clearly covered in the REG, because play is CBI.

Offline Josh

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2016, 06:01:36 PM »
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Play abilities are CBI, so all cards played by Play abilities stay in battle.  The only thing that is negated in this scenario is the Draw ability of the hero, but any cards drawn by the hero that were played via Play abilities stay in play.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2016, 06:41:29 PM »
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So the consensus is that it's a cascade negate and none of the GE enhancements get resolved?
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Offline Josh

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2016, 08:20:46 PM »
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So the consensus is that it's a cascade negate and none of the GE enhancements get resolved?

Nope.  Play abilities are CBI - they can't be cascade negated.  The only ability that would be negated is the hero's Draw ability, and the only cards that would go back to the top of deck are those that weren't played by a Play ability.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2016, 10:18:34 PM »
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So the consensus is that it's a cascade negate and none of the GE enhancements get resolved?

Nope.  Play abilities are CBI - they can't be cascade negated.  The only ability that would be negated is the hero's Draw ability, and the only cards that would go back to the top of deck are those that weren't played by a Play ability.

Roger that.
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2016, 10:45:55 PM »
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You can't cascade negate the play ability.  But it's unclear whether you can (partially) cascade-negate a card played by a play ability.

From the REG:
Quote
If a draw ability is negated:
- Return the drawn cards in their previous order to the deck (if this cannot be done, shuffle the drawn cards together and return them to the previous location)
- If a drawn card was already played, it is cascade-negated prior to being returned to deck
- If any effect on a drawn card that was already played cannot be cascade-negated (due to being cannot be interrupted or cannot be negated in whole or in part), the card is not returned to deck and it remains played

Does the 3rd bullet mean the card is not negated at all, or everything that can be negated is negated?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 10:54:35 PM by RedemptionAggie »

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2016, 11:21:13 PM »
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I'm going to confer with other Elders but my first impression is that everything that is negatable is negated.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2016, 08:02:51 AM »
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I'm going to confer with other Elders but my first impression is that everything that is negatable is negated.

This doesn't make sense to me.  The hypothetical hero in this instance has a Draw ability and a Play ability.  Play abilities are CBI, so Centurion at Jerusalem can only negate the hero's Draw ability.  And since Play abilities are CBI, any card played by a Play ability won't be returned to deck, even if the hero drew it with his Draw ability.


From the REG:
Quote
If a draw ability is negated:
- If any effect on a drawn card that was already played cannot be cascade-negated (due to being cannot be interrupted or cannot be negated in whole or in part), the card is not returned to deck and it remains played

Does the 3rd bullet mean the card is not negated at all, or everything that can be negated is negated?

The REG needs updated - that 3rd bullet point is incorrect.  I've been arguing this since this thread, but to no avail. 

Either Play abilities are CBI or they're not.  Every other CBI ability in the game can't be negated directly or indirectly; why are Play abilities an exception, and a crazy complex one at that?  I can't even imagine trying to explain bullet point 3 from that REG quote to a new player, much less one that I just said "Play abilities cannot be interrupted" to.
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2016, 02:18:45 PM »
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Play abilities are CBI, playing cards via normal initiative isn't.  It could be clearer to re-state that in the section about negating draw.  So the 2nd and 3rd bullets aren't incorrect, just not complete for this scenario.

I do disagree with Redoubter's initial ruling in the other thread - I think Persistent Pestering would remain played (because you can't interrupt the play, even indirectly), but it would be negated (because nothing has granted it CBI/N).  Gabe and ProfessorAlstad's responses are less clear, because they each specify one part of that but not the other.

And that's what I've said here - the played drawn cards remain played (because they were played by play abilities), but negated.

Offline The Guardian

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2016, 02:28:22 PM »
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I don't think I was quite clear in my answer, but I think I'm agreeing with you guys.

Claudia bands to ET. Play Reach, draw 3, play next Abe's Servant to Ur (one of the 3 cards drawn by Reach).

End result is Claudia banded to ET in a FBTNB battle with Reach and Abe's Servant in battle and the other two cards drawn by Reach back on top of deck.

ET's play is CBI so Reach stays on the table. Reach's draw is negated so 2 cards go back to deck, but since Reach's play is CBI, Abe's Servant stays on the table. Is that what we're all saying?
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2016, 02:39:22 PM »
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I don't think I was quite clear in my answer, but I think I'm agreeing with you guys.

Claudia bands to ET. Play Reach, draw 3, play next Abe's Servant to Ur (one of the 3 cards drawn by Reach).

End result is Claudia banded to ET in a FBTNB battle with Reach and Abe's Servant in battle and the other two cards drawn by Reach back on top of deck.

ET's play is CBI so Reach stays on the table. Reach's draw is negated so 2 cards go back to deck, but since Reach's play is CBI, Abe's Servant stays on the table. Is that what we're all saying?

I agree with this because Abe's Servant cannot negate itself the special ability remains active.

But just to make sure we're all on the same page, if instead of Abe's Servant you play Trapped in Cleverness (Ap). Then the blocker plays Midianite Attack (FBTN except banding), Trapped in Cleverness stays on the table (because the play ability is CBI) but the special ability is negated. Is that correct?
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2016, 02:41:17 PM »
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Yes, that's how I'm seeing it.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2016, 02:53:52 PM »
+1
And that's what I've said here - the played drawn cards remain played (because they were played by play abilities), but negated.

Why would the played drawn cards in this scenario be negated?  Centurion at Jerusalem only negates heroes, and all the cards played via Play abilities are enhancements.

ET's play is CBI so Reach stays on the table. Reach's draw is negated so 2 cards go back to deck, but since Reach's play is CBI, Abe's Servant stays on the table. Is that what we're all saying?

Yes.  This contradicts what was ruled in the thread I linked, but this is correct.

I agree with this because Abe's Servant cannot negate itself the special ability remains active.

I'm not sure Abe's Servant tries to negate itself here?  It stays in battle because it was played via a Play ability - there's no ability that is trying to cascade-negate Abe's Servant, because Play abilities (being CBI) cannot be cascade-negated.
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Offline RedemptionAggie

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2016, 06:10:09 PM »
-1
I agree with this because Abe's Servant cannot negate itself the special ability remains active.

I'm not sure Abe's Servant tries to negate itself here?  It stays in battle because it was played via a Play ability - there's no ability that is trying to cascade-negate Abe's Servant, because Play abilities (being CBI) cannot be cascade-negated.

Abe's Servant is trying to indirectly negate itself by negating the draw that drew it.

And that's what I've said here - the played drawn cards remain played (because they were played by play abilities), but negated.

Why would the played drawn cards in this scenario be negated?  Centurion at Jerusalem only negates heroes, and all the cards played via Play abilities are enhancements.

Because negating a draw cascade-negates the drawn cards if already played.  Or as much as they can if they're all or partially CBI/N.  At least that's my interpretation of the 2nd and 3rd bullet points in what I posted earlier.

I agree with the scenarios posted by Guardian and Gabe, but that's less complex because the negate targets both the draw and the next card directly.

Using Gabe's scenario, what if instead of Midianite Attack, it was Swift Horses (Gold) to interrupt Trapped in Cleverness, draw and play Seven Years of Famine?  Does negating the draw negate Trapped in Cleverness indirectly?

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Offline Josh

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2016, 08:17:26 AM »
+1
Abe's Servant is trying to indirectly negate itself by negating the draw that drew it.

But it can't, because it was played via a Play ability, which is CBI.

I guess what I'm asking is, would there be any scenario where a GE played by a Play ability could negate itself?  The answer should be "No", right?  If the answer is "No", then I'm not sure why it matters that Abe's Servant is trying to negate itself.

Using Gabe's scenario, what if instead of Midianite Attack, it was Swift Horses (Gold) to interrupt Trapped in Cleverness, draw and play Seven Years of Famine?  Does negating the draw negate Trapped in Cleverness indirectly?

Trapped in Cleverness won't be indirectly negated, because it was played by a Play ability after it was drawn.  It can't be indirectly negated in any way with respect to the Draw ability that drew it.  CBI is CBI.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2016, 09:37:29 AM »
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Trapped in Cleverness won't be indirectly negated, because it was played by a Play ability after it was drawn.  It can't be indirectly negated in any way with respect to the Draw ability that drew it.  CBI is CBI.

Isn't it just the play ability that is CBI, not every card played by a play ability? The way I understand what people have been saying, Trapped in Cleverness would stay on the table, because the play ability that played it is CBI, but the ability of Trapped in Cleverness itself can be and is still negated.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 10:02:21 AM by Kevinthedude »

Offline kram1138

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2016, 09:44:36 AM »
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Isn't it just the play ability that is CBI, not every card played by a play ability? The way I understand what people have been saying, Trapped in Cleverness would stay on the table, because the play ability that played it is CBI, but the ability of Trapped in Cleverness itself can be and is still negated.

This is my opinion as well. The play ability is CBI, but the draw is not. When the draw is negated, you attempt to negate all played drawn cards then return them to deck. In this case, you can't return it to deck, but you do as much as you can and still negate it.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2016, 09:51:17 AM »
+2
+1

Only the playing of the card is CBI. That does not grant CBI to the ability on the card itself.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2016, 10:40:14 AM »
+1
What an ugly syllogism of rules. The only way a card would stop working because you negated it being drawn is if it goes back to deck and fizzles. If the card stays out and is not being negated directly, why would negating the card that drew it shoot a random negate dart at a card still in battle?
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2016, 10:58:46 AM »
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What an ugly syllogism of rules. The only way a card would stop working because you negated it being drawn is if it goes back to deck and fizzles. If the card stays out and is not being negated directly, why would negating the card that drew it shoot a random negate dart at a card still in battle?

Because going back into the deck and fizzling is not what happens. Cards from a negated draw aren't interrupted before moving back to the deck, they are negated. Every card that comes from a negated draw ability gets a negate dart shot at it before attempting to move it back to its original location. In the given example, the only thing not completely straight forward is the CBI part of the play ability keeps the negated card in play instead of moving it back to the deck.

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2016, 10:59:14 AM »
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Yeah, why?
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Is it ever too late to negate?
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2016, 11:02:06 AM »
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Yeah, why?

From the REG: "If a drawn card was already played, it is cascade-negated prior to being returned to deck"

 


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