Author Topic: Is Deck/Discard a Known Location? (Read 3850 times)

Warrior_Monk · « **on:** April 14, 2013, 09:08:51 PM »

First off, situation: I play Consider the Lilies to search my deck. I have He is Risen! in the deck, but don't want to grab it because I have First Fruits coming back and it'd be my only good card. Can fail the search?
If no, second situation: I play Consider the Lilies to search my deck. I don't have any good enhancements in the deck. Do I have to show my opponent my deck to verify it, or does a judge just come over to verify? I know if you fail to discard something from hand, you have to reveal it, but revealing a deck seems pretty lame and it'd be better to allow failing of a search, as the deck is not a known location. Calling over a judge to do it is just time consuming. Assuming they're telling the truth about not having it is also a bad solution, as if it becomes known that there was a valid enhancement it becomes my word versus my opponent.

Secondly, I know you can't look at your discard pile, but what I'm wondering is where that is in the rule book. Seems like a dumb thing. It takes more time for me to think of whether I/my-opponent has played something or not than it would to take a quick stroll through the discard pile. Is this an actual rule, or was it just a house rule that got placed in there sometime? Just seems pointless. It doesn't increase strategy, and hurts the older and younger crowds.

Finally, you should have to show facedown cards after the game. Hiding lost souls in the artifact pile is just too possible.

So yeah, this is a "I think it's this way, but I want that to be verified because I don't like it" thread.

Mageduckey · « **Reply #1 on:** April 14, 2013, 09:15:41 PM »

1:

Quote from: REG

If a search ability is optional once you choose to view the cards you must select a target (if there is one) to perform the specified action.

2:

Quote from: 10th Anniversary Rulebook page 7

You may not look at cards in any draw pile or discard pile (other than the top card of the discard pile ) unless a special ability on a card allows a player to search a deck. The deck is always reshuffled when this occurs unless a card states otherwise.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #2 on:** April 14, 2013, 09:21:55 PM »

Quote from: Mageduckey on April 14, 2013, 09:15:41 PM

1:
Quote from: REG
If a search ability is optional once you choose to view the cards you must select a target (if there is one) to perform the specified action.

2:
Quote from: 10th Anniversary Rulebook page 7
You may not look at cards in any draw pile or discard pile (other than the top card of the discard pile ) unless a special ability on a card allows a player to search a deck. The deck is always reshuffled when this occurs unless a card states otherwise.

Impressive.

1. So...what happens if I can't? Also, what if the search ability isn't optional?

2. First off, IMO that's stupid. Secondly, the discard pile is not "a deck", so that terminology is bad. "The deck" is the draw pile, so end of the first sentence needs to be fixed. Finally, that's dumb and should be changed.

Mageduckey · « **Reply #3 on:** April 14, 2013, 09:26:23 PM »

*Edit* So that's what he meant...oops. Thanks Redoubter.

Redoubter · « **Reply #4 on:** April 14, 2013, 09:35:43 PM »

I see the question you asking beyond that. The rule in general is that you have to reveal when you cannot perform an action, such as Escape to Egypt when you have no good doms. It is a question that needs answered, mostly to establish the rule, because I've never seen anyone rule it that way but it follows from other rulings that it could be the case.

On not being able to view discard, there is an advantage to being able to look at it before you take many actions, because of the way the decks are constructed. If you could view them, why wouldn't I ask to view your discard all the time so that I can keep track of doms and which battlewinners you have played? It slows down the game to have that happen, I think that's why the rule is in place. I could see reason for a change, but I don't see it happening.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #5 on:** April 14, 2013, 09:58:33 PM »

My gut reaction is that if my opponent plays a search for something in his deck and ends up not pulling something out, that I'm NOT going to make him show me his deck to prove that there wasn't anything there. I'm just happy that his search failed

When it comes to standard practice, I think that people often let their opponent's look through their discard pile if they are asked. But if someone asked to do it every turn, then there is a rule in place so they can say no, and stop their opponent from slowing down the game.

Redoubter · « **Reply #6 on:** April 14, 2013, 10:04:39 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on April 14, 2013, 09:58:33 PM

When it comes to standard practice, I think that people often let their opponent's look through their discard pile if they are asked. But if someone asked to do it every turn, then there is a rule in place so they can say no, and stop their opponent from slowing down the game.

The thing is that the rule stops everyone from looking at any discard pile (except for the top card). It's not just being courteous and allowing opponents to be able to see it, you can't look either. At least that's the current rule (in the old REG and the new), and it has real gameplay implications.

If it changes, I doubt you'll see much resistance from the players

But I know it's the current state of affairs.

Red · « **Reply #7 on:** April 14, 2013, 10:30:17 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 14, 2013, 10:04:39 PM

Quote from: Prof Underwood on April 14, 2013, 09:58:33 PM
When it comes to standard practice, I think that people often let their opponent's look through their discard pile if they are asked. But if someone asked to do it every turn, then there is a rule in place so they can say no, and stop their opponent from slowing down the game.

The thing is that the rule stops everyone from looking at any discard pile (except for the top card). It's not just being courteous and allowing opponents to be able to see it, you can't look either. At least that's the current rule (in the old REG and the new), and it has real gameplay implications.

If it changes, I doubt you'll see much resistance from the players But I know it's the current state of affairs.

No resistance here!

Redoubter · « **Reply #8 on:** April 14, 2013, 10:41:41 PM »

Also, just throwing out there that if the rule is there because of that (and not just so that people don't have an advantage in knowing what has/has not been played or what is in each pile), then it is unnecessary when we consider that prep and discard and each card played in battle have time limits already. If they want to spend some of that time searching through discard piles, and the judge rules they are taking too much time, we have rules for that already.

Just throwing in my two cents

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #9 on:** April 14, 2013, 11:00:14 PM »

As far as I have known, the status quo was always that no one could look in the discard pile without a special ability saying so. I think the rule should be changed so that a player may look into his own discard pile, but a SA would be required to look in an opponent's discard pile.

With regard to the search, I really don't think anyone wants to go with a Reveal of an entire deck, especially in Type 2.

Platinum_Angel · « **Reply #10 on:** April 14, 2013, 11:07:15 PM »

Is there a rule for taking notes on a piece of paper of which cards were discarded?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #11 on:** April 14, 2013, 11:10:13 PM »

I think it's ridiculous that the deck is a known location and I can't fail search but the discard pile is unknown.

Gabe · « **Reply #12 on:** April 14, 2013, 11:38:29 PM »

Regarding #1, there is nothing that states you have to reveal your deck if you don't find a target for the search. If you don't find it, you don't. If your opponent demands proof, then I guess they are welcome to call a judge. I've never seen that happen. I doubt you have either.

Item #2 is in the new rule book. It's already too late to do anything about it. There would need to be a really good reason to change it and make the new rule book defunct before it even gets released. There are pros and cons to both allowing and disallowing players to view the discard pile. It really just comes down to personal preference. I'd lean towards allowing players to view it, but I don't consider it a big enough deal to fight for it.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #13 on:** April 14, 2013, 11:58:19 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on April 14, 2013, 11:38:29 PM

Regarding #1, there is nothing that states you have to reveal your deck if you don't find a target for the search. If you don't find it, you don't. If your opponent demands proof, then I guess they are welcome to call a judge. I've never seen that happen. I doubt you have either.

Item #2 is in the new rule book. It's already too late to do anything about it. There would need to be a really good reason to change it and make the new rule book defunct before it even gets released. There are pros and cons to both allowing and disallowing players to view the discard pile. It really just comes down to personal preference. I'd lean towards allowing players to view it, but I don't consider it a big enough deal to fight for it.

Maybe something to keep in mind for next time around?

@1: which is why it should be allowed. Otherwise you're just promoting lying or "accidentally not seeing it" which is really dumb. I know Redemption doesn't have that kind of community, but that's not a good thing to base rules around. I for one would love to make my opponent think I don't have something in my deck and force a misplay.

@2: Understandable. Maybe something to keep in mind for the future?

Mageduckey · « **Reply #14 on:** April 15, 2013, 12:06:35 AM »

So say if someone claims they don't have a valid target for their search and later show they do, they automatically forfeit the game. Problem solved (at least in terms of stopping cheating - throwing games would get much easier, though).

Jmbeers · « **Reply #15 on:** April 15, 2013, 12:22:47 AM »

Personally not being able to view discard piles was always one of my favorite rules. So much of the "skill" in Redemption takes place outside of the actual playing of the game. Every rule that encourages the use of in game skills is a plus for me.

Quote from: Platinum_Angel on April 14, 2013, 11:07:15 PM

Is there a rule for taking notes on a piece of paper of which cards were discarded?

I can't point it out but I believe you are restricted from memory aid devices, such as a not pad.

Red · « **Reply #16 on:** April 15, 2013, 12:34:16 AM »

Quote from: Jmbeers on April 15, 2013, 12:22:47 AM

Personally not being able to view discard piles was always one of my favorite rules. So much of the "skill" in Redemption takes place outside of the actual playing of the game. Every rule that encourages the use of in game skills is a plus for me.

Quote from: Platinum_Angel on April 14, 2013, 11:07:15 PM
Is there a rule for taking notes on a piece of paper of which cards were discarded?

I can't point it out but I believe you are restricted from memory aid devices, such as a not pad.

Nowhere in the rules or tournament rules does it restrict taking notes.

Redoubter · « **Reply #17 on:** April 15, 2013, 12:44:36 AM »

Agree with Red, I cannot find any rules governing this in any documentation provided. And I have also found only one reference to this on the boards. It seems note-taking is allowed, but how far does it go? Can you bring a deck list with you to the table and check things off, and write down what your opponent plays? Can you bring an electronic device of some kind to do the tracking, and can that device include the ability to do calculations and probabilities?

I know this is taking things to extremes, but just pointing about why we should have a line somewhere, and we should have it written down somewhere.

Red · « **Reply #18 on:** April 15, 2013, 12:46:40 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on April 15, 2013, 12:44:36 AM

Agree with Red, I cannot find any rules governing this in any documentation provided. And I have also found only one reference to this on the boards. It seems note-taking is allowed, but how far does it go? Can you bring a deck list with you to the table and check things off, and write down what your opponent plays? Can you bring an electronic device of some kind to do the tracking, and can that device include the ability to do calculations and probabilities?

I know this is taking things to extremes, but just pointing about why we should have a line somewhere, and we should have it written down somewhere.

Pencil and paper is a decent line.

Mageduckey · « **Reply #19 on:** April 15, 2013, 12:51:12 AM »

That's a great idea, Redoubter - I think I'm going to make a list of probabilities for the next card being what I want, and have that with me at every game. You could even make grouped probabilities based on the specific deck; for example, chances of getting your next king or Samaria for a GoS deck. Thanks for the suggestion

Redoubter · « **Reply #20 on:** April 15, 2013, 12:53:53 AM »

Quote from: Red on April 15, 2013, 12:46:40 AM

Pencil and paper is a decent line.

I agree, but only if you have a mechanical pencil. Otherwise the tip of the pencil is of varying thickness and results in a less-than-satisfactory line.

...Oh you mean metaphorically! I agree. I would say that the best rule would be to allow paper with no information on it and a basic writing implement. I only point out the extremes so that we can hopefully get a ruling that is written down, even if it is just in a thread like this

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #21 on:** April 15, 2013, 02:54:00 AM »

I actually remember someone asking whether or not they're allowed to use pencil/paper during a game because they kept forgetting what they put in The Darkness and didn't want to reveal it to all players if it wasn't going to be used to block. It might have been me, I'm not sure. I went to look for that thread to see if there was ever a discussion on it, but I can't find it.

I'm just throwing that out there in case anyone else remembers it.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #22 on:** April 15, 2013, 10:35:23 AM »

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on April 15, 2013, 02:54:00 AM

I actually remember someone asking whether or not they're allowed to use pencil/paper during a game because they kept forgetting what they put in The Darkness and didn't want to reveal it to all players if it wasn't going to be used to block. It might have been me, I'm not sure. I went to look for that thread to see if there was ever a discussion on it, but I can't find it.

I'm just throwing that out there in case anyone else remembers it.

I think you are allowed to look at any of your face down characters at any time, I'd have to check to see if that is current, but I know that is part of the proposed rule for face down cards we are developing for ANB purposes.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #23 on:** April 15, 2013, 10:54:49 AM »

Quote from: Jmbeers on April 15, 2013, 12:22:47 AM

Personally not being able to view discard piles was always one of my favorite rules. So much of the "skill" in Redemption takes place outside of the actual playing of the game. Every rule that encourages the use of in game skills is a plus for me.

Quote from: Platinum_Angel on April 14, 2013, 11:07:15 PM
Is there a rule for taking notes on a piece of paper of which cards were discarded?

I can't point it out but I believe you are restricted from memory aid devices, such as a not pad.

Redemption isn't memory. What skill does having to remember tons of plays in the game add when you are playing your 10th game of the day?

Jmbeers · « **Reply #24 on:** April 15, 2013, 11:00:55 PM »

Say my opponent is playing red+chosen variant. It makes a huge difference if I can't remember if they played A Soldiers Prayer to get Bravery back yet or searched for a separate card. I'm holding a chump block and a battle winner. And I'm down to my last evil character. Now what do I play? Let me just check my notes...

That's seems pretty lame to me. And yes being able to filter several levels of info at one time is a skill.

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Author Topic: Is Deck/Discard a Known Location? (Read 3850 times)

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Rawrlolsauce!