Author Topic: Interrupts interrupt...what?  (Read 5998 times)

Scottie_ffgamer

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Interrupts interrupt...what?
« on: March 23, 2009, 05:43:22 PM »
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Player A starts RA.  Player B block and gives player A inish.  Player A plays a discard enhancement card with numbers.  Player B plays an interrupt the battle.  Does the interrupt interrupt the entire enhancement card (numbers and SA), or only the SA?

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2009, 05:58:07 PM »
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In the definition for "interrupt the battle," one interrupted thing is "the last enhancement played in battle." When you interrupt an entire enhancement, that includes the numbers as well.

Could you give an example of how this matters?
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Scottie_ffgamer

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2009, 10:59:36 PM »
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Well, I was battling against a silver guy with one of my pale green guys today in a game.  I think it was mutual Dest so the silver guy got to play first.  He played a card (the name of which has escaped me) that interrupted the battle and discarded my guy, and it was a 7/0.  I played 2k horses to interrupt the battle and I had Forgotten history in my had.  With the numbers, the silver guy would still have been beating me if I played it, without, I'd be beating him.  I didn't know if the interrupt let me interrupt the numbers as well.  The guy I was playing said only the SA, but I wanted to make sure for future reference.

PS, sorry I don't have all the card names, I can't remember them all. :P


Two Thousand Horses - Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: Weapon • Special Ability: Holder may interrupt the battle, draw 2 cards from the top of own draw pile, and play the next enhancement. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: II Kings 18:23 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Common)

Forgotten History - Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: 0 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Select up to four cards from one opponent’s discard pile and remove them from the game. The battle immediately ends. Cannot be negated • Identifiers: None • Verse: Psalms 106:13 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Common)

Offline TimMierz

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2009, 11:13:50 PM »
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Okay, that makes sense, great example. And yes, the 7/0 on Striking Herod is interrupted, because it's part of the enhancement.

There's a distinction between negating (the effect of) an entire enhancement (like Covenant of Noah) and negating its special ability (like Cymbals of the Levites) that isn't necessarily obvious.
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Offline CountFount

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2009, 08:23:15 AM »
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From the REG:

"Interrupt is used to stop another card’s special ability until the special ability on the interrupt card is completed (see Interrupt in the glossary of the rulebook [p. 45]).  An “interrupt” goes back in time and suspends something that has already happened.  Negate is a combination of “interrupt” and “prevent”, where “prevent” is a special ability described in more detail elsewhere (see Prevent).  The “prevent” stops something from happening now or in the future.  Together, they stop past, present, and future special abilities on targeted cards.

Interrupt is an ability that temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and inserts the special ability on the interrupt card before the previously completed abilities complete. Interrupt is used to stop another card’s special ability until the special ability on the interrupt card is completed (see Interrupt in the glossary of the rulebook [p. 45]).  An “interrupt” goes back in time and suspends something that has already happened."

STILL looking for where it says that an interrupt of any sort interrupts something other than a s/a. Numbers are not s/a.  REG clearly says special abilities. If the Hero is not removed from battle how can the numbers be interrupted or prevented by a Forgotten History or Wonders Forgotten unless the s/a of the evil enhancement specifically states that it is interupting the numbers as well? It does not appear to be implied by the general definition of an 'interupt' card.
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Scottie_ffgamer

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2009, 02:25:40 PM »
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Eh...there goes that idea.  :P

Offline TimMierz

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2009, 02:28:55 PM »
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That's strange, because I know that negating "the effect of the last enhancement" gets rid of the numbers too. Could someone that knows the REG better than I do tell me why interrupting says it's only special abilities?
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2009, 02:29:27 PM »
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I agree with Tim on this one.

Quote from: REG > Instant Abilities > Interrupt or Negate Last
‘Interrupt the battle’ interrupts all active ongoing abilities on characters and enhancements (e.g. Red Dragon), abilities that are causing you to lose the battle by removal (e.g. King Zimri), as well as the last enhancement played in the current battle if it was played by your opponent.
I bolded the important part.  Interrupting or negating an enhancement targets the entire enhancement, not just the special ability of the enhancement.
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Offline CountFount

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2009, 02:35:19 PM »
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Are the numerical attributes of the card an ongoing ability?
Where does the rulebook or REG say that?

Quote
Interrupting or negating an enhancement targets the entire enhancement, not just the special ability of the enhancement.

I found no reference in the REG that says that an interrupt targets the entire enhancement. The REG seems pretty clear when it specifically states special abilities.
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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2009, 02:42:45 PM »
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Where does the rulebook or REG say that?

In the previous post I gave an exact quote with the REG location as the header. 

When an enhancement is negated/interrupted it negates/interrupts the entire enhancement, not just the special ability of the card.  If it only interrupted the special ability it would say "as well as the special ability of the * last enhancement played in the current battle if it was played by your opponent.

*the bolded part was added for example and is not part of the REG quote.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 02:48:40 PM by BrianGabe »
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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2009, 02:47:35 PM »
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I think if you read the REG regarding Interupt you will see that "Interupts" only effect the special ability of the enhancement.

Your reference is
Quote
Quote from: REG > Instant Abilities > Interrupt or Negate Last
‘Interrupt the battle’ interrupts all active ongoing abilities on characters and enhancements (e.g. Red Dragon), abilities that are causing you to lose the battle by removal (e.g. King Zimri), as well as the last enhancement played in the current battle if it was played by your opponent.

Are you saying that the numerical abilities are ongoing abilities? Where in the REG does it say that or the Rulebook? Please.
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Scottie_ffgamer

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2009, 02:53:29 PM »
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The REG also says this in how to resolve when the cards are played:
Quote from: Instant abilities > Interrupt and Negate Last > How to Use
Here is how to RESOLVE the timing issues associated with interrupt, prevent and negate cards as they are played.  Put these cards in a stack (mentally if not physically) in the order they are played.  The last card (top card) on the stack gets resolved first.  For example, if I play card A, then you interrupt with card B, then I interrupt with card C, we resolve the actions in a ‘last on, first off’ manner.  So card C’s actions are first, which in the above case would eliminate card B, so card A would be the last one standing and take effect.

In this, it says that it is as if the last card (C) was played before the others, which would mean that the others numbers haven't been played either.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 02:56:58 PM by Scottie_ffgamer »

Offline Gabe

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2009, 02:58:53 PM »
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I'm not implying that numbers are ongoing abilities.

Let's look at the REG quote we've both referenced.  Interrupt the battle interrupts three things.

1) All active ongoing abilities on characters and enhancements (e.g. Red Dragon)

2) abilities that are causing you to lose the battle by removal (e.g. King Zimri)

3) as well as the last enhancement played in the current battle if it was played by your opponent

You're correct that the first two points only interrupt special abilities, not numbers.  

Point number three specifies the last enhancement as the target for the interrupt.  That means the entire enhancement, not just the special ability of the enhancement.
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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2009, 03:05:46 PM »
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The REG also says this in how to resolve when the cards are played:
Quote from: Instant abilities > Interrupt and Negate Last > How to Use
Here is how to RESOLVE the timing issues associated with interrupt, prevent and negate cards as they are played.  Put these cards in a stack (mentally if not physically) in the order they are played.  The last card (top card) on the stack gets resolved first.  For example, if I play card A, then you interrupt with card B, then I interrupt with card C, we resolve the actions in a ‘last on, first off’ manner.  So card C’s actions are first, which in the above case would eliminate card B, so card A would be the last one standing and take effect.

In this, it says that it is as if the last card (C) was played before the others, which would mean that the others numbers have been played either.

I believe that this is can only be referring to only the special ability of the enhancement (because the REG states interrupts targets special abilities and does not say numerical abilities) as well.

Quote
3) Point number three specifies the last enhancement as the target for the interrupt.  That means the entire enhancement, not just the special ability of the enhancement.

That could be seen as assumption on your part since the REG is so narrow in its wording to call out special abilites. Can you interrupt the numerical value of a character card as a general rule?
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Scottie_ffgamer

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2009, 03:14:41 PM »
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The REG also says this in how to resolve when the cards are played:

Quote from: Instant abilities > Interrupt and Negate Last > How to Use
Here is how to RESOLVE the timing issues associated with interrupt, prevent and negate cards as they are played.  Put these cards in a stack (mentally if not physically) in the order they are played.  The last card (top card) on the stack gets resolved first.  For example, if I play card A, then you interrupt with card B, then I interrupt with card C, we resolve the actions in a ‘last on, first off’ manner.  So card C’s actions are first, which in the above case would eliminate card B, so card A would be the last one standing and take effect.

In this, it says that it is as if the last card (C) was played before the others, which would mean that the others numbers have been played either.

I believe that this is can only be referring to only the special ability of the enhancement (because the REG states interrupts targets special abilities and does not say numerical abilities) as well.

It specifically says to stack them up and play them in that order.  How can you say it only means the SA when it says to play actually play them in a different order?

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2009, 03:38:57 PM »
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Quote
"Interrupt is used to stop another card’s special ability until the special ability on the interrupt card is completed (see Interrupt in the glossary of the rulebook [p. 45]).  An “interrupt” goes back in time and suspends something that has already happened.  Negate is a combination of “interrupt” and “prevent”, where “prevent” is a special ability described in more detail elsewhere (see Prevent).  The “prevent” stops something from happening now or in the future.  Together, they stop past, present, and future special abilities on targeted cards.

Interrupt is an ability that temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and inserts the special ability on the interrupt card before the previously completed abilities complete. Interrupt is used to stop another card’s special ability until the special ability on the interrupt card is completed (see Interrupt in the glossary of the rulebook [p. 45]).  An “interrupt” goes back in time and suspends something that has already happened."

When you negate (interrupt and prevent) it does not impact the cards numerical abilities of an enhancement unless the card is discarded. Now if someone can show me in the REG where this is implied regarding numerical abilities by an "end the battle" play following an interrupt (which in the REG pointedly refers to "special abilities" but never ever says numerical abilities) then I am all in.

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2009, 03:46:56 PM »
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That could be seen as assumption on your part since the REG is so narrow in its wording to call out special abilites. Can you interrupt the numerical value of a character card as a general rule?

I would agree with you except that I've gone through this same process myself.  There was a time a couple years ago that I thought you could only interrupt the special ability and not the numbers.  It took some convincing and I believe Schaef and/or Bryon patiently explaining things, but eventually I understood.  I can appreciate where you're coming from. :)
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Offline CountFount

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2009, 03:49:38 PM »
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That could be seen as assumption on your part since the REG is so narrow in its wording to call out special abilites. Can you interrupt the numerical value of a character card as a general rule?

I would agree with you except that I've gone through this same process myself.  There was a time a couple years ago that I thought you could only interrupt the special ability and not the numbers.  It took some convincing and I believe Schaef and/or Bryon patiently explaining things, but eventually I understood.  I can appreciate where you're coming from. :)

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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2009, 04:56:08 PM »
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The real problem starts with the rulebook definition of "Interrupt."

Interrupt is used to stop another card’s special ability until the special ability on the interrupt card is completed.

Interestingly, the definition of "Negate" says this:

Negate stops and prevents a targeted special ability or card.
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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2009, 04:58:50 PM »
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The real problem starts with the rulebook definition of "Interrupt."

Interrupt is used to stop another card’s special ability until the special ability on the interrupt card is completed.

Interestingly, the definition of "Negate" says this:

Negate stops and prevents a targeted special ability or card.

Thank you....Someone understands my pain....but don't be offended that you and I are thinking the same thing.  ;D I'm sure that someone will logically remind me that I am an idiot and should remember vol.86 pg 22 sub paragraph 3.4.
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Offline TimMierz

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2009, 05:16:07 PM »
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The closest thing I can find is the following potentially ambiguous statement:

Interrupt is an ability that temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and inserts the special ability on the interrupt card before the previously completed abilities complete.

Especially considering that every other instance of interrupt seems to reference "special abilities" and not just "abilities", it seems hard to defend my case. I couldn't find the older posts that solidify what Gabe and I have been saying.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2009, 05:18:02 PM »
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Interrupt is an ability that temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and inserts the special ability on the interrupt card before the previously completed abilities complete.

Is it just me or is that quote the most confusing sentence in the history of the REG?
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Offline CountFount

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2009, 05:19:31 PM »
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The closest thing I can find is the following potentially ambiguous statement:

Interrupt is an ability that temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and inserts the special ability on the interrupt card before the previously completed abilities complete.

Especially considering that every other instance of interrupt seems to reference "special abilities" and not just "abilities", it seems hard to defend my case. I couldn't find the older posts that solidify what Gabe and I have been saying.

I agree with you Tim and I want to be clear on what I am trying to point out. It doesn't matter to me the ruling but the wording in the REG needs to be made clear so I can explain it to all the other old men. Thanks for trying to Tim.
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Offline TimMierz

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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2009, 05:23:43 PM »
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I agree that it needs to be made clear; in fact, I don't see how anyone would conclude anything other than what you're saying based on the rulebook and REG.

You're welcome for trying. :)
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Re: Interrupts interrupt...what?
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2009, 02:54:24 AM »
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When you negate an enhancement, you negate the entire enhancement, numbers and all.  Interrupt is really just a temporary backwards negate.  Therefore, if you "interrupt the last enhancement and..." then you would temporarily negate the whole last enhancement, including numbers.  Usually it doesn't matter, but when you interrupt the last enhancement and then play a "battle ends," it does matter.

 


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