Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: RTSmaniac on May 27, 2013, 11:59:54 PM
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I attack with band of 2 hero's with different brigades, opponent blocks and pushes one of my hero's out of battle, can I play an interrupt with the hero pushed out?
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The short answer is no you can't.
The explanation is: Special Initiative, what we call the ability to play an interrupt or negate on a character being removed from battle before the remove completes is only granted if the entire side is being removed.
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unless it make you loose the battle, right. like if one hero is discarded and it makes you loosing the battle, you can play a negate then. but if you arent loosing the battle, you cant. I think thats how it works.
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unless it make you loose the battle, right. like if one hero is discarded and it makes you loosing the battle, you can play a negate then. but if you arent loosing the battle, you cant. I think thats how it works.
If you are referring to a special ability causing you to be losing by numbers you still won't be able to play a negate on the removed character.
Example: Jacob banded to Angel at Jerusalem (Jacob is a 6/5 and Angel at Jerusalem is a 2/2, Jacob bands to Angel at Jerusalem, who's ability is irrelevant in this example) It is blocked by Women of Thebez (4/4 black character, who's ability will also be irrelevant in this example). The rescuing player has a blue negate (say Sign of the Rainbow, but it isn't terribly important) and the blocking player has Wrath of Satan (discard all Heroes in play) and Net (capture a hero).
The blocking player has initiative and if he has noticed that the opponent has mostly blue cards in their deck he may decide to play Net to capture Jacob. The rescuing player can't play Sign of the Rainbow because the rescuing player didn't have Special Initiative, which allows you to play an interrupt or negate before it finishes resolving (the removal hasn't finished so the character is still technically in battle), if the rescuing player had a Flaming Sword (a silver enhancement that negates an evil enhancement) they could play that.
If the blocking player chose instead to play Wrath of Satan, this would have removed all the heroes in battle and the rescuing player could have played Sign of the Rainbow (since it doesn't finish resolving until the chance to negate has happened).
I hope this clears things up.
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From what I've heard, ChristianSoldier, I believe you would actually have special initiative because you'd be losing by the numbers then net creates a losing condition, therefore Jacob would get to negate it. This is just what I've heard so confirmation from others would be good.
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In the past, the answer was yes (which is probably why people are a bit confused on this one). But with the rulings figuring out exactly how special initiative works (ex. only in cases when your last character is removed from battle), you can't anymore.
Since there is no Special Initiative, the card that pushes back the banded hero will complete before regular initiative passes to the remaining hero. At that point, the only cards legal for that hero to play would be ones that matched their brigade.
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Just for reference for those confused, when SI got a hard-and-fast rule, it got put into the new REG:
Special Initiative
When you are losing the battle by removal, you are granted special initiative to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate the card that is causing your charact’s removal. You are considered to be losing by removal when an opponent’s special ability, or a game rule that has been triggered by an opponent’s special ability, would leave you with no character in battle when the special ability has completed.
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In the past, the answer was yes (which is probably why people are a bit confused on this one). But with the rulings figuring out exactly how special initiative works (ex. only in cases when your last character is removed from battle), you can't anymore.
Since there is no Special Initiative, the card that pushes back the banded hero will complete before regular initiative passes to the remaining hero. At that point, the only cards legal for that hero to play would be ones that matched their brigade.
Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification, I didn't know that had been changed.
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The current rule makes bad gameplay. Change it back please?
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The current rule makes bad gameplay. Change it back please?
How does it make bad gamelplay?
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The current rule makes bad gameplay. Change it back please?
How does it make bad gamelplay?
Less use of special inititve.
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That creates the need for players to actually use enhancements for each brigade they play, how many games have you played with these rules?? I assure you this ruling improves the game. It makes for more strategy in how you deliver your hits and in how you plan to receive them.
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The current rule makes bad gameplay. Change it back please?
How does it make bad gamelplay?
Less use of special inititve.
I would counter that this is a good thing, the current rule is consistent, and it simplifies gameplay.
The way SI used to work was confusing, convoluted, inconsistent, and ruled differently depending on who you talked to. There are very few arguments that arise out of the current wording. You do not have to do a calculation mid-ability to determine if it is a 'losing state' after the ability, and then argue about what 'losing' even means, and then trying to figure out whether you can play the interrupt/negate on which characters at the point the ability causes SI. This not only was a difficult ruling issue, which came up over and over, but it was not intuitive or easily grasped by newer players (or even many experienced players, for good reason). The idea to limit the amount of 'game pauses' was a good one, overall.
The new rule is not ambiguous, easily ruled, and simple to communicate. Does the ability remove your last character from your side of the battle, or trigger a game rule that would remove your last character? If yes, SI. If no, regular initiative. No confusion, simple, and easy.
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To continue what Redoubter said.
Special Initiative is an exception to normal rules (abilities have to complete before anything else can be inserted) and can lead to some confusion in how it works in weird situations. By limited the amount of times it can come up will limit the possible times when weird Special Initiative situations come up.
By making it only come up when the entire side (I don't like using "Last" because it implies 1) is removed it makes it easier to rule, less complicated rulings and less use of breaks in normal use of abilities.
Also it's not so much of a change as a good definition of how Special Initiative works, since before it was defined the way it was there wasn't a consensus on how it worked.
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Hey,
Also it's not so much of a change as a good definition of how Special Initiative works, since before it was defined the way it was there wasn't a consensus on how it worked.
It most definitely is a change. There may have been parts of the country that didn't understand the rule but it was well defined and, in my experience, consistently implemented for many years. And honestly, I'm a little bit baffled by people who say the old rule was confusing.
It makes me sad when I attack with two banded heroes, have a negate to play on each of them, my opponent plays a battle winner that can be negated to kill one of them and it passes initiative, but I don't get the opportunity to use my negate because they played Christian Martyr on the second hero :(
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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We are in the same boat Tim because I am still used to the old rules.