Author Topic: Interrupt the battle  (Read 5461 times)

Offline Prof Underwood

  • Redemption Elder
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8597
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Interrupt the battle
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2013, 03:41:03 PM »
0
I guess I'm just confused (no pun intended) on how a special ability that was already played and carried out can be prevented after the fact (like Confusion in this case).
I don't see it that way.  I see it that the "negate all" was already in play BEFORE the Confusion, and therefore it is preventing it BEFORE the fact (despite the pause due to the interrupt of the 2kh).

I see where you guys are coming from on this.  I just see it differently.  I have tried at length to explain how my understanding of it works.  Hopefully you can see where I'm coming from as well despite disagreeing with it.  At this point if you still don't understand my perspective, then I'll have to let others explain it in different ways.  Thanks for the discussion.

browarod

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Interrupt the battle
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2013, 04:03:42 PM »
0
I get where you're coming from and I appreciate the time you've taken to try and explain for us. :)

To whomever else may take up the gauntlet: based on the way prevent works, I still don't see how something can be prevented after it activates (without an interrupt). I get that the negate all was active before the ITB+Confusion, but if the prevent is interrupted and Confusion activates, even if the negate all kicks back in after didn't it miss the timing of preventing Confusion? Or do you pretend that it was never interrupted and that's why Confusion is prevented? Because that doesn't fit with (what I understand to be) the current rules governing ITB and their "play next" bubbles.

Offline Josh

  • Trade Count: (+46)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3187
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: Interrupt the battle
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2016, 11:39:40 AM »
0
I'm bringing this thread back from the dead, based on Gabe's post in another thread today:

Is negate an ongoing ability?

Yes, the prevent component of it is.

I'll reiterate my stance:

1. "Negate all" abilities have an instant ability ("Negate all abilities in specified location...") and an ongoing ability ("Prevent all abilities that enter the specified location in the future").
2. If a "Negate all" ability (like Benaiah or Blessings) is interrupted by an "Interrupt the Battle" ability, only the ongoing portion of the "Negate all" ability is Interrupted, and therefore only the ongoing portion of the "Negate All" ability reactivates once the Interrupt is completed.  This would be the "Prevent" portion.
If creation sings Your praises so will I
If You gave Your life to love them so will I

Offline The Schaefer

  • Redemption Elder
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • *****
  • Posts: 543
    • -
    • South Central Region
Re: Interrupt the battle
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2016, 02:05:00 PM »
0
Hmm.... the way I always took it was that the negate all would first interrupt anything that fell under its scope and then an ongoing prevent ability would activate. I don't see how the interrupt portion of the negate all can be ongoing is all. I am confused about how it applies to can you interrupt completed abilities or not. Like for a situation where an opponent plays confusion and sat something else to pass initiative and then benaiah gets banded in. Does he negate the completed effect of confusion or does it not affect it because confusions ability is no longer active basically? Now another problem I have is in the above situation the band gets negated and benaiah gets sent back with the negate persisting in battle. The reason I have an issue is based on that he is banded in and then once it is a completed ability he interrupts it. Thus implicating he can undo completed abilities unless that band is ruled to not complete until the characters abilities activate or that band is an ongoing ability. Which im not sure. I guess more than anything I don't think that being able to undo completed actions should happen. For example shuffle abilities. How do you undo them? I would say that for negate all cards there needs to be a rule that any action completed can't be negated because the special ability is no longer active. Ongoing abilities though I'd be fine with a ruling where the negate all would reactivate and stop it or that the interrupt portion of the negate all would not be ongoing therefore could not stop it. Feel free to tell me how my logic is wrong or what all I'm missing. I feel that everyone is just trying to reach a sense of clarity and I thought I would share my thoughts on the matter. Thank you all for your input on the matter.

Offline Redoubter

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4910
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: Interrupt the battle
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2016, 05:10:58 PM »
+3
I'd have to say that jmhartz is correct.  Doesn't look like I was involved in this conversation 2.5 years ago, but I would rule the same way that he is presenting based on current rules, though it took me a second to think that through.  My case is below.

Quote from: REG 3.0.0 > Prevent > Clarifications
Abilities that are worded “negate all special abilities” (even if the ability includes an exception or is limited to all special abilities of a certain type, but does not say “currently in battle”) are actually a combination of a prevent and a negate ​ability. They should be played as “negate all [specified set of abilities] in play and prevent all [specified set of abilities] for remainder of battle.”

We have a definition of "negate" as having both a backwards-looking instant component and a forward-looking ongoing component:
Quote from: REG 3.0.0 > Negate > How to Play
A negate ​ability that undoes abilities that have already completes is instantaneous, as an interrupt​.
A negate ​ability that prevents ​uncompleted abilities from activating is ongoing, as a prevent​.

We see from all of this that a "negate all" is instantaneously when undoing existing abilities, but it is separately treated as ongoing when it is preventing:

Quote from: REG 3.0.0 > Prevent > General Description
A prevent​ ability keeps the uncompleted activation of an ability from ever completing.

So we see that it is only targeting uncompleted activations.  To further support this concept (emphasis mine):

Quote from: REG 3.0.0 > Prevent > How to Play
If an ability is prevented, its activation cannot begin. If an ability is prevented and its activation has already begun but it has not completed activation (i.e. it is a pending ability), the completion of the activation of the pending ability is skipped (i.e., it is no longer a pending ability even though it did not complete its activation). An ability can not be prevented if its activation has already completed.

Lastly, we have already established that the backward-looking interrupting component of Negate is an instant ability.  The definition for Interrupt the Battle states:

Quote from: REG 3.0.0 > Interrupt > Special Conditions
The phrase “interrupt the battle” includes interrupting the following:
● all active ongoing abilities
● abilities that are defeating one of the characters you control in battle
● the last card played in current battle if it was played by your opponent

This does not include instant abilities, except on the last card played in battle (if played by an opponent) or one defeating the controller's character in battle.  If we look at the Benaiah blocked by ASA+2KH example, the last card played was ASA, and so the entirety of Benaiah is not interrupted.

Therefore, we come to the following conclusions:
1. Negate has two distinct components, one instant and one ongoing.
2. The ongoing component of Negate is a Prevent.
3. A Prevent cannot undo any effect that has already completed that is not pending (that is, it was not interrupted).
4. The instant component of Negate is an Interrupt.
5. As an instant, the Interrupt component cannot be interrupted by an ItB card just on the basis of being played in battle.

The final result is this: The prevent on Benaiah is interrupted, 2KH resolves, an enhancement is played while the prevent is interrupted, the enhancement is not prevented, Benaiah reactivates, the prevent turns back on but not the interrupt (which was never interrupted), so the enhancement is not undone.

slugfencer

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Interrupt the battle
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2016, 06:44:15 PM »
0
Are you guys saying that you can interrupt fbtn?  Strong angel attacks. Play interrupt  Joseph in prison on small black ec. In the past jip is negated. Now are you saying  that jip works? If so this is a huge change  in the way we play.  ???

Offline Gabe

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+69)
  • *****
  • Posts: 10675
  • From Moses to the prophets, it's all about Him!
    • -
    • North Central Region
    • Land of Redemption
Re: Interrupt the battle
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2016, 06:58:03 PM »
0
Are you guys saying that you can interrupt fbtn?  Strong angel attacks. Play interrupt  Joseph in prison on small black ec. In the past jip is negated. Now are you saying  that jip works? If so this is a huge change  in the way we play.  ???

No, JiP is still prevented by TSA or any other FBTN.
Have you visited the Land of Redemption today?

slugfencer

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Interrupt the battle
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2016, 07:02:25 PM »
0
Ok thanks. I misunderstood  the other post.

Offline Gabe

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+69)
  • *****
  • Posts: 10675
  • From Moses to the prophets, it's all about Him!
    • -
    • North Central Region
    • Land of Redemption
Re: Interrupt the battle
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2016, 07:17:46 PM »
0
Ok thanks. I misunderstood  the other post.

I agree, what is written is a little confusing. I had to read it a couple times to understand it.

FTR, the original ruling in the 2nd post on this thread still holds true, Confusion is negated based on the example given.

ITB will interrupt the last card played by the opponent (in the example given that's Benaiah). It doesn't just interrupt his ongoing (prevent) ability but his entire "negate all" ability. When the interrupt ends, Benaiah's entire ability reactivates, not just the prevent portion.

If Benaiah is holding Eleazar's Sword, that will be the last card played, in which case only Benaiah's prevent ability is negated, allowing Confusion to stick.
Have you visited the Land of Redemption today?

Offline Praeceps

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • *****
  • Posts: 888
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: Interrupt the battle
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2016, 08:44:02 PM »
0
I agree, what is written is a little confusing. I had to read it a couple times to understand it.

FTR, the original ruling in the 2nd post on this thread still holds true, Confusion is negated based on the example given.

ITB will interrupt the last card played by the opponent (in the example given that's Benaiah). It doesn't just interrupt his ongoing (prevent) ability but his entire "negate all" ability. When the interrupt ends, Benaiah's entire ability reactivates, not just the prevent portion.

If Benaiah is holding Eleazar's Sword, that will be the last card played, in which case only Benaiah's prevent ability is negated, allowing Confusion to stick.

Um, no. The last card played would have to be the EC otherwise what would you be playing the ItB card on?
Just one more thing...

Offline Gabe

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+69)
  • *****
  • Posts: 10675
  • From Moses to the prophets, it's all about Him!
    • -
    • North Central Region
    • Land of Redemption
Re: Interrupt the battle
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2016, 08:52:15 PM »
0
Um, no. The last card played would have to be the EC otherwise what would you be playing the ItB card on?

Did you miss the part were it said "last card played by an opponent"? I think the EC played the interrupt in that example. Doesn't that make the qualifying card a Hero?
Have you visited the Land of Redemption today?

Offline Praeceps

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • *****
  • Posts: 888
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: Interrupt the battle
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2016, 09:52:22 PM »
0
ItB doesn't interrupt the last card played by the opponent, it interrupts the last card if it was played by the opponent, so no I didn't miss a part that wasn't there.
Just one more thing...

Offline Gabe

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+69)
  • *****
  • Posts: 10675
  • From Moses to the prophets, it's all about Him!
    • -
    • North Central Region
    • Land of Redemption
Re: Interrupt the battle
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2016, 09:59:15 PM »
0
ItB doesn't interrupt the last card played by the opponent, it interrupts the last card if it was played by the opponent, so no I didn't miss a part that wasn't there.

Ah, you are correct. Subtle but important difference. My mistake. Thanks for setting me on the right path.
Have you visited the Land of Redemption today?

Offline Praeceps

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • *****
  • Posts: 888
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: Interrupt the battle
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2016, 12:34:05 PM »
0
Heh, after the number of times you've helped set me straight, glad I could return the favor once :)
Just one more thing...

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal