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Author Topic: Instant vs. Ongoing decrease  (Read 1557 times)

Offline Arch Angel

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Instant vs. Ongoing decrease
« on: August 22, 2011, 08:50:19 PM »
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My question was fairly simple, I thought, but then upon asking a few people I got strange replies.

The question itself: Is Plagued with Diseases an instant or an ongoing decrease? As in, does it's effect go away when the curse is deactivated?

The reason I ask is that there is absolutely no wording on it to make it seem ongoing, and yet the experienced players I asked said that it was ruled as ongoing, but that they disagreed with the ruling or didn't understand it.

There's already precedent for instant Artifact abilities that happen upon activation.  So... why is PWD ruled weirdly?

Plagued with Diseases (Pi)
Type: Curse • Brigade: Brown • Ability: 1 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: Decrease all opponents’ Heroes by 0/2 (or 0/3 if you have the fewest Redeemed Souls).
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Instant vs. Ongoing decrease
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2011, 09:34:35 PM »
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Increase/Decrease abilities on Artifacts have all always been ruled to be ongoing, mostly just because. Covenant of Salt, Elijah's Mantle, Crown of Thorns, and PwD are all ruled the same way, as ongoing increase/decrease abilities.
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Offline Arch Angel

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Re: Instant vs. Ongoing decrease
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2011, 09:37:32 PM »
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Could that get added to the REG? Currently there's nothing in it to explain the ruling.

Edit: Actually, Crown and Mantle both say "while this card is in play". Salt and PWD don't, though.
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Offline Smokey

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Re: Instant vs. Ongoing decrease
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2011, 10:07:27 PM »
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Quote from: Professoralstad on August 22, 2011, 09:34:35 PM
Increase/Decrease abilities on Artifacts have all always been ruled to be ongoing, mostly just because. Covenant of Salt, Elijah's Mantle, Crown of Thorns, and PwD are all ruled the same way, as ongoing increase/decrease abilities.

Wut.

I can see arguments for it being either / both, but considering it doesn't say "while this card is in play", and that it shares wording with all the recent instant decrease / increase abilities, I'd argue it's instant.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Instant vs. Ongoing decrease
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2011, 10:23:35 PM »
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I think it is universally acceptable to say that artifact decreases are ongoing. There is no reason for them to be treated like enhancements if we so choose. In general, enhancements are usually one-time use (like instant) and artifacts are usually continual use (like ongoing).

I think we can safely add this distinction to the REG as Arch Angel requested.
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Offline RTSmaniac

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Re: Instant vs. Ongoing decrease
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2011, 10:29:00 PM »
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Here's a scenerio.
Chemosh set aside. Plagued with Diseases active.
Upkeep phase- Chemosh counter placed on opponents hero causing discard due to PwD.
Prep Phase- Can I activate another artifact? Is the hero still discarded?
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Offline Arch Angel

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Re: Instant vs. Ongoing decrease
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 10:47:10 PM »
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Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 22, 2011, 10:23:35 PM
I think it is universally acceptable to say that artifact decreases are ongoing. There is no reason for them to be treated like enhancements if we so choose. In general, enhancements are usually one-time use (like instant) and artifacts are usually continual use (like ongoing).

I think we can safely add this distinction to the REG as Arch Angel requested.
The problem is that Salt and PWD aren't /just/ Artifacts. They're also enhancements. They lack the wording to be treated as ongoing abilities, and there ARE other instant ability covs (See: several of the I Am covs)

If anything is being ruled just because doesn't it deserve to be looked at for actual logic behind the wording?
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Instant vs. Ongoing decrease
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2011, 11:13:43 PM »
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I think it's logical that "all increase/decrease abilities are ongoing when on Artifacts" is a default rule.
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Offline STAMP

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Re: Instant vs. Ongoing decrease
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2011, 11:42:40 PM »
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Quote from: Minister Polarius on August 22, 2011, 11:13:43 PM
I think it's logical that "all increase/decrease abilities are ongoing when on Artifacts" is a default rule.

Until it was decided to also make increase/decrease abilities and instant ability at the same time that it is ongoing.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Instant vs. Ongoing decrease
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2011, 12:07:34 AM »
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Quote from: Arch Angel on August 22, 2011, 10:47:10 PM
If anything is being ruled just because doesn't it deserve to be looked at for actual logic behind the wording?

When I said just because, what I meant was that we don't want it to decrease every round. If PwD refreshed every round, decreasing another */2 or */3, it would be the most overused card in the game. It has been ruled to be ongoing since Priests, and Covenant With Salt since Patriarchs. Neither of them share the "while in play" language of Elijah's Mantle and Crown of Thorns, because I suppose by the time they were released the card designers saw that as superfluous (since all artifacts abilities are effectively "while in play" or at least "while active").

I agree that Pol's suggestion is a good default rule, and should be added to the REG. I do not agree with STAMP, mostly because that would ruin my street cred.
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Offline RTSmaniac

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Re: Instant vs. Ongoing decrease
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2011, 12:51:01 AM »
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Quote from: RTSmaniac on August 22, 2011, 10:29:00 PM
Here's a scenerio.
Chemosh set aside. Plagued with Diseases active.
Upkeep phase- Chemosh counter placed on opponents hero causing discard due to PwD.
Prep Phase- Can I activate another artifact? Is the hero still discarded?
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: Instant vs. Ongoing decrease
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2011, 01:01:23 AM »
+1
Quote from: RTSmaniac on August 23, 2011, 12:51:01 AM
Quote from: RTSmaniac on August 22, 2011, 10:29:00 PM
Here's a scenerio.
Chemosh set aside. Plagued with Diseases active.
Upkeep phase- Chemosh counter placed on opponents hero causing discard due to PwD.
Prep Phase- Can I activate another artifact? Is the hero still discarded?
Unrelated. Yes you can activate another artifact. The question here is if PWD decreases everybody every turn by 0/2. So then after leaving PWD up for 2 turns, all characters that were out for that time would be 0/4 (or 5 or 6).
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Offline RTSmaniac

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Re: Instant vs. Ongoing decrease
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2011, 01:22:35 AM »
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k. thanx. just wanted to hijack thread real quick- you may continue...
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