Author Topic: Artifact Phase versus Dom's (Read 1650 times)

jbeers285 · « **on:** July 02, 2013, 10:00:11 PM »

My opponent has Goldb Cheribum active during Draw phase. He flips over Golden Cheribum to activate an artifact from hand, however, I insert mayhem prior to him getting the other artifact from his hand.

A. He shuffles and draws 6 and then cannot activate an artifact for this turn.
B. he shuffles D6 and then can activate another art or GC again from pile or hand.
C. He shuffles D6 then can activate only from pile.
D. He is allowed to activate the art from his hand because the Dom can't interrupt the art phase.
E. He could re activate GC before art phase ends then shuffles D6 and search.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 02, 2013, 11:31:47 PM »

Any help here would be great

Redoubter · « **Reply #2 on:** July 02, 2013, 11:46:38 PM »

The problem is that deactivating an artifact can currently be done without immediately activating a new artifact. There is no artifact phase (though there should be). So, I think that if you beat your opponent playing your Mayhem before he played the artifact, it would be B, except he couldn't activate GC anymore (by deactivating, and actions taking place, it can no longer be activated in the turn).

We really need just an artifact phase, but that is not the current rule.

Drrek · « **Reply #3 on:** July 02, 2013, 11:51:36 PM »

I feel that if a person is deactivating an artifact with the intent of activating another, dominants should not be allowed to be inserted between the deactivation and activation. To me its really all one action, as the deactivation is just to allow the activation.

Redoubter · « **Reply #4 on:** July 02, 2013, 11:55:51 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on July 02, 2013, 11:51:36 PM

I feel that if a person is deactivating an artifact with the intent of activating another, dominants should not be allowed to be inserted between the deactivation and activation. To me its really all one action, as the deactivation is just to allow the activation.

I agree completely. However, that's not how they have to play it, and then we have to rule on intent...again. It is similar to the "Yeah, but I was going to play SoG+NJ!" "But I played Mayhem, that's why you want to play those!" "Roooo" "oooar!" situation.

Based on current rules and the way artifact activation works, I don't see another choice. If you intend to play an artifact from hand right then, you have to put it down first then deactivate the other artifact to show your intent.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #5 on:** July 03, 2013, 11:23:51 AM »

I think that as long as a reasonable amount of time has passed after the deactivation of GC then your Mayhem can effectively disrupt the hand before the new activation, however, I don't know of any rule that says that your opponent wouldn't be able to activate a new Artifact. As long as no Artifact was activated that had any impact on the game, then I think you can activate a new one as long as it is still your prep phase.

It is probably good practice for people to put artifacts from hand into their artifact pile before choosing to activate something new, but I also think that it should be reasonably simple to determine (at least in live tournaments) when a "reasonable time" has passed after the deactivation of an Artifact. It might be an issue in RTS, but it's not like there's anything new about that. That's what the coin flip feature is for...

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #6 on:** July 03, 2013, 12:40:25 PM »

Shouldn't it be either the new art activates or he gets to use GC?

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #7 on:** July 03, 2013, 03:38:11 PM »

It should be the artifact step in the preperation phase. An opponent should be able to activate special abilities between every step of the game. For example, before you enter your battle phase- I as an opponent should have the priority to activate special abilities if possible.

In the prep phase you have the right to deactivate artifacts, to play cards, to activate artifacts, to play cards, ect.

Before you perform these actions, I as a player should be able play cards unless its a special ability like Urim and Thummim that has to resolve before you can play cards or activate special abilities.

Korunks · « **Reply #8 on:** July 03, 2013, 03:43:01 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on July 03, 2013, 03:38:11 PM

It should be the artifact step in the preperation phase. An opponent should be able to activate special abilities between every step of the game. For example, before you enter your battle phase- I as an opponent should have the priority to activate special abilities if possible.

In the prep phase you have the right to deactivate artifacts, to play cards, to activate artifacts, to play cards, ect.

Before you perform these actions, I as a player should be able play cards unless its a special ability like Urim and Thummim that has to resolve before you can play cards or activate special abilities.

The only thing that makes that not possible is the so far undocumented rule that you can't play anything during artifact manipulation. It has been ruled you cannot deactivate Lampstand, Falling away someone and then reactivate it. That effectively make an artifact phase occur in your preparation phase once you choose to begin manipulating artifacts.

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #9 on:** July 03, 2013, 03:45:14 PM »

The rule that stops that scenario is that you cannot deactivate and reactivate the same artifact (at least in the same location) during your prep phase. You can, however, deactivate Lampstand, play Falling Away, and then activate Unholy Writ (for example).

Korunks · « **Reply #10 on:** July 03, 2013, 04:14:36 PM »

Quote from: Ken4Christ4ever on July 03, 2013, 03:45:14 PM

The rule that stops that scenario is that you cannot deactivate and reactivate the same artifact (at least in the same location) during your prep phase. You can, however, deactivate Lampstand, play Falling Away, and then activate Unholy Writ (for example).

I was unaware of that, do you have a link to that rule? Just so I can have a reference when it comes up?

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #11 on:** July 03, 2013, 04:23:37 PM »

All I could find was a reference to the rule, but not the rule itself. And that thread actually had an unresolved question, as well.

Are ongoing protect abilities from artifacts (like Lampstand) active through the end of the phase, thereby disallowing Falling Away during prep phase after you deactivate Lampstand?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #12 on:** July 03, 2013, 04:37:27 PM »

Quote from: Ken4Christ4ever on July 03, 2013, 04:23:37 PM

All I could find was a reference to the rule, but not the rule itself. And that thread actually had an unresolved question, as well. Are ongoing protect abilities from artifacts (like Lampstand) active through the end of the phase, thereby disallowing Falling Away during prep phase after you deactivate Lampstand?

AFAIK, no. Deactivating an Artifact means that its effect is no longer active. I have seen plenty of people deactivate CwD and play TC enhancements, or as you suggest play FA immediately after FA, and I have no reason to think that that is incorrect.

Korunks · « **Reply #13 on:** July 03, 2013, 04:42:02 PM »

This would all be so much clearer and we wouldn't have to keep rehashing this question over and over again if we just added artifact manipulation phase. Make it take place between Draw and Prep and all Artifact activation and deactivation would take place there. No more confusion.

Red · « **Reply #14 on:** July 03, 2013, 06:59:23 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on July 03, 2013, 04:42:02 PM

This would all be so much clearer and we wouldn't have to keep rehashing this question over and over again if we just added artifact manipulation phase. Make it take place between Draw and Prep and all Artifact activation and deactivation would take place there. No more confusion.

After prep. Not before.

Chris · « **Reply #15 on:** July 03, 2013, 07:29:18 PM »

Quote from: Red on July 03, 2013, 06:59:23 PM

Quote from: Korunks on July 03, 2013, 04:42:02 PM
This would all be so much clearer and we wouldn't have to keep rehashing this question over and over again if we just added artifact manipulation phase. Make it take place between Draw and Prep and all Artifact activation and deactivation would take place there. No more confusion.
After prep. Not before.

Veto. Before prep is better because it hurts speed more.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 03, 2013, 08:37:06 PM »

Quote from: Chris on July 03, 2013, 07:29:18 PM

Quote from: Red on July 03, 2013, 06:59:23 PM
Quote from: Korunks on July 03, 2013, 04:42:02 PM
This would all be so much clearer and we wouldn't have to keep rehashing this question over and over again if we just added artifact manipulation phase. Make it take place between Draw and Prep and all Artifact activation and deactivation would take place there. No more confusion.
After prep. Not before.

Veto. Before prep is better because it hurts speed more.

Before hurts speed for both players but hurts UandT more

I would support an art phase that happened before prep phase.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #17 on:** July 03, 2013, 09:02:24 PM »

Deactivating and activating an artifact in a single location should simply occur simultaneously. Seems simple.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 03, 2013, 09:14:41 PM »

I agree with you Alex but this ruling needs made bc it will happen at nats this year at least once.

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Author Topic: Artifact Phase versus Dom's (Read 1650 times)

Chris