Author Topic: In Battle? (Read 5034 times)

theselfevident · « **on:** August 15, 2011, 03:26:40 PM »

As posted in the rule changes:
Consistency Given to Not In Battle
Not in battle is defined as cards face up on the table that are not in battle (this includes territory, set-aside area and Land of Redemption). It does not include hand, draw pile, discard pile, and cards face down in play. This changes the previous ruling that Lampstand of the Sanctuary stops Mayhem.

So if a card says "remove any evil character in battle" for example, then I can go into their deck and remove that card? Because the way this is stated implies that the "deck/discard pile/artifact pile/face down cards in play" are all "in battle"

Gabe · « **Reply #1 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:28:06 PM »

No it doesn't. Look at the G/H insert or online REG page that shows the Redemption card layout.

theselfevident · « **Reply #2 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:29:52 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 15, 2011, 03:28:06 PM

No it doesn't. Look at the G/H insert or online REG page that shows the Redemption card layout.

but you just said that the deck is not "not in battle" the double negative means that it is in battle... please clarify.

The M · « **Reply #3 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:32:06 PM »

I think there was a misunderstanding here. When Gabe said

Quote from: theselfevident on August 15, 2011, 03:26:40 PM

It does not include hand, draw pile, discard pile, and cards face down in play.

he meant that those cards are not in battle, not excluded from not in battle.

theselfevident · « **Reply #4 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:33:01 PM »

Quote from: The M on August 15, 2011, 03:32:06 PM

I think there was a misunderstanding here. When Gabe said
Quote from: theselfevident on August 15, 2011, 03:26:40 PM
It does not include hand, draw pile, discard pile, and cards face down in play.
he meant that those cards are not in battle, not excluded from not in battle.

How on God's green earth is that even possible? Are those cards in Pergatory?

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #5 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:33:36 PM »

I still think that cards that say "Not in Battle" should default to in play. Yes I understand that set aside area and land of redemption aren't in battle but the card doesn't say it can target out of play.

theselfevident · « **Reply #6 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:41:25 PM »

I want to know why cards can't just mean what they say? Please explain how your hand or draw pile is now not "not in battle" but isn't "in battle"? Is there now a 3rd category? Because it should be either is or isn't in battle.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #7 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:42:49 PM »

Your draw pile isn't in battle. That's all there is to it.

theselfevident · « **Reply #8 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:43:38 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 15, 2011, 03:42:49 PM

Your draw pile isn't in battle. That's all there is to it.

Then why isn't it protected by Lampstand of the Sanc. then? Or your hand?

theselfevident · « **Reply #9 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:45:34 PM »

Quote from: theselfevident on August 15, 2011, 03:43:38 PM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 15, 2011, 03:42:49 PM
Your draw pile isn't in battle. That's all there is to it.

Then why isn't it protected by Lampstand of the Sanc. then? Or your hand?

I should have given a better example. Let's say the card says "discard any evil character in battle". Can you discard it from their hand since the hand is not "not in battle" (= in battle)

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #10 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:50:38 PM »

It says discard a card in battle, so you discard a card in battle.

It's really not that hard to comprehend that "not in battle" means "in play or set aside".

theselfevident · « **Reply #11 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:56:08 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 15, 2011, 03:50:38 PM

It says discard a card in battle, so you discard a card in battle.

It's really not that hard to comprehend that "not in battle" means "in play or set aside".

I don't understand because either something is or is not in battle. And back to my point of arbitrary rulings. (especially when there was a ruling saying that Lampstand protected from Mayhem.)

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #12 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:59:35 PM »

What does in battle or not in battle have to do with anything?

All this ruling is doing is clarifying what "not in battle" means for the 5 cards that actually use the language. It's not arbitary at all; it was ruled in order to prevent cards from being broken. Lampstand protecting your hand was a slight casulty of the ruling in order to make it consistant.

Oh, I just read your kinda ridiculous double negative thing.

The ruling clarifies was "not in battle" means. It doesn't mean things are not "not in battle".

theselfevident · « **Reply #13 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:01:00 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 15, 2011, 03:59:35 PM

What does in battle or not in battle have to do with anything?

All this ruling is doing is clarifying what "not in battle" means for the 5 cards that actually use the language. It's not arbitary at all; it was ruled in order to prevent cards from being broken. Lampstand protecting your hand was a slight casulty of the ruling in order to make it consistant.

Ok: Is your hand in battle or not in battle?

Gabe · « **Reply #14 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:01:48 PM »

It's really simple. Not in battle = cards face up on the table that are not in the field of battle (see the card layout from the G/H starter if you don't know where the field of battle is).

As a clarification the definition of "not in battle" excludes your hand, deck and discard pile.

You may not like that definition, honestly I don't either, but lets not pretend it's hard to understand. The elders spend a great deal of time discussing this topic and it's implications and this is the final decision.

theselfevident · « **Reply #15 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:03:28 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 15, 2011, 04:01:48 PM

It's really simple. Not in battle = cards face up on the table that are not in the field of battle (see the card layout from the G/H starter if you don't know where the field of battle is).

As a clarification the definition of "not in battle" excludes your hand, deck and discard pile.

You may not like that definition, honestly I don't either, but lets not pretend it's hard to understand. The elders spend a great deal of time discussing this topic and it's implications and this is the final decision.

This rulling strengthens a card people want to ban.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #16 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:03:50 PM »

Would you rather Angry Mob nab all heroes in your deck, hand, territory, and set aside?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #17 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:04:00 PM »

It is not in battle. However, it is not protected by Mayhem due to this ruling.

The ruling was created in order to check an absurdly broken combo with Angry Mob that should have been legal based on the ruling of Lampstand. In order to do this, Lampstand had to be depowered unfortunately.

You are being really ridiculous, to be completely honest. There's a difference between a literal interpretation of cards and pharisitically following every minute detail of the exact specific way cards are worded despite broken combos.

Gabe · « **Reply #18 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:05:54 PM »

Quote from: theselfevident on August 15, 2011, 04:03:28 PM

This rulling strengthens a card people want to ban.

I agree and that is why it was not my preference. For consistency in the game, simple rules and less errata it needed to be ruled this way. The problem card is Lampstand. The wording on that card leaves a lot of room for improvement. I hope that we can reprint it some day soon and make it work like it's supposed to.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #19 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:06:50 PM »

Mayhem is only uber on the first turn anyway, when Lampy can't protect from it. It's decent after the first turn.

theselfevident · « **Reply #20 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:07:37 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 15, 2011, 04:05:54 PM

Quote from: theselfevident on August 15, 2011, 04:03:28 PM
This rulling strengthens a card people want to ban.

I agree and that is why it was not my preference. For consistency in the game, simple rules and less errata it needed to be ruled this way. The problem card is Lampstand. The wording on that card leaves a lot of room for improvement. I hope that we can reprint it some day soon and make it work like it's supposed to.

Well hopefully so because the intent of the card is now broken...

theselfevident · « **Reply #21 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:10:02 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 15, 2011, 04:04:00 PM

It is not in battle. However, it is not protected by Mayhem due to this ruling.

The ruling was created in order to check an absurdly broken combo with Angry Mob that should have been legal based on the ruling of Lampstand. In order to do this, Lampstand had to be depowered unfortunately.

You are being really ridiculous, to be completely honest. There's a difference between a literal interpretation of cards and pharisitically following every minute detail of the exact specific way cards are worded despite broken combos.

At least w/ Angry Mob there was some chance involved with its effect.

Gabe · « **Reply #22 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:10:23 PM »

Quote from: theselfevident on August 15, 2011, 04:07:37 PM

Well hopefully so because the intent of the card is now broken...

Not really. Lampstand was created to stop Burial, DoN and Falling Away. It still does all that. Mayhem came later. During the testing of Mayhem we just assumed it would also be stopped by Lampstand and ruled it that way when Mayhem was released. We had not realized the implications of that ruling because the cards it impacts are seldom used.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #23 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:11:24 PM »

Not at all. If you interpret Angry Mob literally, it should leave all heroes turned facedown. It should also pull all heroes from everywhere (including deck, discard, and hand) unless this ruling was made.

theselfevident · « **Reply #24 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:16:50 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 15, 2011, 04:11:24 PM

Not at all. If you interpret Angry Mob literally, it should leave all heroes turned facedown. It should also pull all heroes from everywhere (including deck, discard, and hand) unless this ruling was made.

If that was the case that would be a bonus wouldn't it? Because 1st it could harm the owner of Angry Mob if it ends up spinning their way. 2nd: if your hero's are left face down couldn't you flip them over later or even be able to leave them in play because they wouldn't have to be shuffled back into the deck? Just saying...

Or let's say you make this a rule: all character's in play face down, are turned face-up once they enter battle (which is for all intents and purposes how it is) and then I really doubt anyone would use Angry Mob because it would help your opponent so vastly. Just something to kick around...

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Author Topic: In Battle? (Read 5034 times)

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk