Author Topic: immune + banding>negate banding?  (Read 11135 times)

Offline SirNobody

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2009, 05:37:38 PM »
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Hey,

...and I mean to get it changed.

That's not going to happen.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offline 777Godspeed

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2009, 06:40:38 PM »
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if I'm immune and banded, can they negate my banding?

This is your original question in the first post.
The answer is Yes. Negate = Interrupt and Prevent

From the REG:
Note: Immunity on a character does not protect other characters that may be banded into battle.

Ring Wraith, if you would give us a specific example of the situation you are asking about, listing the cards involved and the SAs we could give you a specific answer, but to go back and forth on this hypothetical situation will not get us anywhere. You have been given the answer to your question with an example and how it was resolved.


Also, why should the fact the 12 fingers' ability is CBN mean anything? There's nothing trying to negate 12 Fingers' Ability.

No one ever said that there was anything trying to negate TFGs ability.
Go back and reread the example I posted, if fact, I'll post it here for easy reference. TFG is attempting to target a protected band.

Here is the scenario that was in the PoA discussion about negating a band.
Cherubim bands to ET and Protection of Angels is played.
Twelve-Fingered Giant is used to block.
The question was "Does TFG negate the band?"
after a long discussion the Official Answer was "Yes."

Cherubim
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 5 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: May band to any Purple Brigade Hero. • Identifiers: Generic OT Male Angel • Verse: Ezekiel 10:14 •

Ethiopian Treasurer
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 5 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Search own draw pile or discard pile for one Bible icon with no special abilities. Holder may play the next enhancement card. • Play As: Holder must search own draw pile or discard pile for one Bible icon with no special abilities and put it in hand. Holder may play the next enhancement card. • Identifiers: NT Male Human • Verse: Acts 8:27 •

Protection of Angels
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 2 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Interrupt the battle and protect all Heroes in play and set aside areas from evil cards until end of turn. • Identifiers: OT, Involves Music • Verse: Psalms 91:11 •

The Twelve-Fingered Giant
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 6 / 12 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Negate all banding abilities. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT Male Giant (Human), Philistia, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: I Chronicles 20:6 •

In essence, TFGs "Negate all banding abilities" is attempting to target Cherubims banding to ET. Because TFGs 'Negate all banding abilities. Cannot be negated." SA, it essentianlly "punches a hole" through the protection and negates the band. If TFGs "Cannot Be Negated" part had been left off ot the card, TFG would attempt to target the band, but PoA would protect the band.


General Description - Cannot Be Negated
“Cannot be negated” is a combination of “cannot be interrupted” and “cannot be prevented” (see Cannot be Negated in the glossary  of the rulebook [p. 41]).  “Cannot be negated” specifically targets the negate special ability, the interrupt special ability, and the prevent special ability.  “Cannot be negated” cannot  be stopped.

however, “Cannot be negated” abilities cannot be negated even by other “cannot be negated” abilities.


I hope this clarifies any ambiguity in the answer, which is 42.   ::)


Godspeed,
Mike
« Last Edit: February 01, 2009, 07:17:36 PM by 777Godspeed »
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Offline Arch Angel

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2009, 08:28:23 PM »
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I understand what you said, the part I don't understand or agree with is...

If TFGs "Cannot Be Negated" part had been left off ot the card, TFG would attempt to target the band, but PoA would protect the band.

Negate trumps Protect/Immune/Ignore unless the Protection ability is CBN. Why should TFG's Protection from being negated matter at all if nothing is trying to negate it?

Offline 777Godspeed

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2009, 09:16:07 PM »
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I understand what you said, the part I don't understand or agree with is...

If TFGs "Cannot Be Negated" part had been left off ot the card, TFG would attempt to target the band, but PoA would protect the band.

Negate trumps Protect/Immune/Ignore unless the Protection ability is CBN. Why should TFG's Protection from being negated matter at all if nothing is trying to negate it?

Without the original thread to fallback on my memory is a bit fuzzy on the details. You are correct that the negate would get through the protect and negate the band. Whether we agree with it or not, that is the Official Ruling. The CBN on TFGs SA is there because of HoH, TSA, CotH, Ben and all the FbtN chains that would try to stop his SA.

Disregard this:
If TFGs "Cannot Be Negated" part had been left off ot the card, TFG would attempt to target the band, but PoA would protect the band.
I had confused myself in my own explantion.   :scratch:  ::)


Godspeed,
Mike



« Last Edit: February 01, 2009, 09:19:58 PM by 777Godspeed »
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Scottie_ffgamer

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2009, 10:00:29 PM »
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Perhaps it is my lack of proper understanding...but I thought that protect abilities protected something even from CBN abilities.  Example:

Player A starts a RA.  Player B blocks with Pale Green Weapon class EC.  Player B has Carcasses active and plays Confusion.  Player A has Jerusalem Tower out.  Doesn't Jerusalem Tower win out over Confusion even though it's CBN?  Isn't that the same idea of having this?  If Immune is a form of protect, it shouldn't be able to be effected by any ability unless interrupted first regardless of CBN.

Carcasses  - Type: Curse • Brigade: Black • Ability: 1 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: If a warrior class Evil Character is in battle, discard abilities on evil Enhancements cannot be negated. May be used for two rounds. • Identifiers: OT • Verse: Deuteronomy 28:26 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Uncommon)

Confusion  - Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Owner may look through one opponent's draw pile, discard one card and shuffle remaining cards. • Play As: Search any opponent's deck and discard any card. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Isaiah 5:20 • Availability: Prophets booster packs (Rare)


Again, I know the officially ruling has been made, but I guess I'm just looking for proper reasoning.
Jerusalem Tower  - Type: Fortress • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: No opponent may remove a card from holder's draw pile. Draw pile may still be searched and/or shuffled. • Play As: All opponents are prevented from removing cards from holder’s draw pile. Draw pile may still be searched, revealed, and/or shuffled. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Nehemiah 12:38 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)

Offline Arch Angel

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2009, 10:26:58 PM »
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TFG's CNB ability has nothing to do with why he can negate a protected banding. Negate simply trumps protect.

In your scenario you're correct, JT does protect against Confusion because Protect trumps Cannot be Negated.

Warrior_Monk

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2009, 10:43:55 PM »
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ok, here's the cards

Alter of Burnt Offering (can play an offering enhancement during prep. phase, it activates and is discarded). Grain Offering (All heroes are immune to selected brigade color for this turn). Caleb (bands to men of judah), Men of Judah, TFG (negates banding. CBN)

I play Grain Offering on Alter of Burnt Offering, and am immune to black. I RA with Caleb banded to Men of Judah. my advisary blocks with Twelve Fingered Giant. can he negate my banding?

Offline sk

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2009, 03:16:46 AM »
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Doesn't Jerusalem Tower win out over Confusion even though it's CBN?

TIn your scenario you're correct, JT does protect against Confusion because Protect trumps Cannot be Negated.

Not true.  JT is a prevent, not a protect:


Jerusalem Tower
Type: Fortress • Brigade: Multicolor • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: No opponent may remove a card from holder's draw pile. Draw pile may still be searched and/or shuffled. • Play As: All opponents are prevented from removing cards from holder’s draw pile. Draw pile may still be searched, revealed, and/or shuffled.


Thus JT cannot stop a CBN Confusion.
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Offline Arch Angel

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2009, 12:50:10 PM »
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Doesn't Jerusalem Tower win out over Confusion even though it's CBN?
Not true.  JT is a prevent, not a protect:
:doh: That's what I get for not actually reading JT's play as.

I play Grain Offering on Alter of Burnt Offering, and am immune to black. I RA with Caleb banded to Men of Judah. my advisary blocks with Twelve Fingered Giant. can he negate my banding?
Yes, he can negate your banding.

Side question: do you play the enhancements ON Altar of Burnt Offering, or through it? You still have to have a matching brigade character in your territory, right?

Altar of Burnt Offering
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: You may play up to two offering Enhancements during your preparation phase. They activate immediately, and then are discarded.

Grain Offering
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Teal • Ability: 2 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: All Heroes in play are immune to selected evil brigade this turn.

Warrior_Monk

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2009, 04:25:51 PM »
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yes is what everybody's saying, my question is how can he target my S.A. if all the character's cannot be targeted?

The Schaef

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2009, 05:01:13 PM »
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Negate trumps immunity.  The card works.

Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2009, 05:05:57 PM »
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On this topic, what if its CBN immunity/Protection?
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2009, 05:06:32 PM »
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Negate trumps immunity.  The card works.
bah humbug. *mumbles disagreements, but stays silent and accepts the ruling*

On this topic, what if its CBN immunity/Protection?
because it is...

Offline Arch Angel

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2009, 08:39:18 AM »
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On this topic, what if its CBN immunity/Protection?
I still think it should work, because TFG's not targeting the protect ability but simply targeting the band. But I'm not positive.

Offline JSB23

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2009, 08:46:55 AM »
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Side question: do you play the enhancements ON Altar of Burnt Offering, or through it? You still have to have a matching brigade character in your territory, right?

Altar of Burnt Offering
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: You may play up to two offering Enhancements during your preparation phase. They activate immediately, and then are discarded.

Grain Offering
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Teal • Ability: 2 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: All Heroes in play are immune to selected evil brigade this turn.

Side Answer: You do not need to have a character of matching brigade in territory to play an offering on Altar of Burnt Offerings.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2009, 08:55:28 AM »
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Side Answer: You do not need to have a character of matching brigade in territory to play an offering on Altar of Burnt Offerings.

Altar of Burnt Offering does not allow a Hero to use an enhancement they wouldn't normally be able to use.  For example, you could not use a teal offering on your green priest.  There's nothing in the ability that allows characters to use enhancements of another brigade.  Table of Showbread does but not Altar of Burnt Offering.
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The Schaef

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2009, 09:42:15 AM »
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bah humbug. *mumbles disagreements, but stays silent and accepts the ruling*

Trust me, on this ruling, you are grumbling at the wrong guy.

Offline Gabe

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2009, 10:05:01 AM »
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bah humbug. *mumbles disagreements, but stays silent and accepts the ruling*

Trust me, on this ruling, you are grumbling at the wrong guy.

It's true.  Schaef argued and argued (with Bryon none the less) on this one and we all know how Schaef can argue ( :) ) but in the end Rob ruled with Bryon.  Negate trumps protection every time, even indirectly.
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Scottie_ffgamer

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Re: immune + banding>negate banding?
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2009, 03:28:07 PM »
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Side Answer: You do not need to have a character of matching brigade in territory to play an offering on Altar of Burnt Offerings.

Altar of Burnt Offering does not allow a Hero to use an enhancement they wouldn't normally be able to use.  For example, you could not use a teal offering on your green priest.  There's nothing in the ability that allows characters to use enhancements of another brigade.  Table of Showbread does but not Altar of Burnt Offering.

But when you are using Altar of Burnt Offering, you aren't playing an enhancement on a Hero, are you?

Altar of Burnt Offering
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: You may play up to two offering Enhancements during your preparation phase. They activate immediately, and then are discarded.

It just says you 'may play up to two' enhancements.  It doesn't say you play them on a certain hero.

 


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