Author Topic: Imitating Evil - an explanation  (Read 1686 times)

Offline Gabe

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Imitating Evil - an explanation
« on: May 28, 2017, 12:19:21 PM »
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We’ve made a few rather complicated cards in Revelation of John. With copy abilities not being all that common, Imitating Evil is one of them. I’d like to take a moment to break down step by step how to play this card.
 
The first part of the ability is rather straightforward. The EC on which Imitating Evil is played gets to bring a demon into battle to fight with him or her.
 
Now comes the fun part – Imitating Evil becomes a generic copy of that demon. Let’s break down the REG entry for copy and see how it applies here.
 
Quote from: REG
Copying a card copies all attributes of the card.

I supposed it’s important that we understand what the “attributes” of a card are, right? According to the REG the attributes are identifiers, strength, toughness, brigade, card type and reference. Imitating Evil is going to copy all of those attributes of the demon it targets. For all intents and purposes it is like having a duplicate copy of that demon in the battle. That could be a problem if the demon is unique, like Red Dragon, King of Tyrus or Abaddon the Destroyer. Except that Imitating Evil has a distinct qualifier about how it copies--it is generic. That saves us the headache of figuring out what to do with two copies of the same unique character in battle.
 
Quote from: REG
The ability of the copied card activates as the last part of completing the copy ability. The special ability of the copied card is applied in addition to the special ability of the copying card.

Notice that the special ability is not considered an “attribute” of the card. As the final step of the copy ability the special ability of the copied character activates exactly as it’s written on the demon you copy. You essentially get to activate the special ability a second time, once for the character you banded into battle and once for the copy. Modifiers (such as “cannot be…” or “regardless of…”) on the copying card are not applied to the special ability that is copied.
 
Quote from: REG
All other attributes of the copied card replace the attributes of the copying card.

It’s important to note that Imitating Evil is now a character that is an exact match of the demon which was banded into battle. It is no longer an evil enhancement with no stats.
 
Quote from: REG
A copy ability targets the card that is copied.

The demon you band into battle is targeted twice. First for the band ability, then again for the copy ability. If the original demon is able to leave play, such as Seven Wicked Spirits or The Deceiver and its ability has been used in such a way that it is no longer in play when the copy ability activates, then Imitating Evil will not copy that demon.
 
Quote from: REG
All copy abilities are ongoing. Copy abilities last until the card with the copy ability leaves the field of battle.

The first part feels like a minor note, but an important one nonetheless. Imitating Evil remains in the copied form. But the second part is interesting and I imagine will be new to some of you because it was something us elders had to learn in relation to this card. Unlike other abilities that last until the end of the phase, copy abilities only last while the copying card remains in battle. In a lot of situations that will be until the end of the phase, but if you were to withdraw the copy it would cease to be a character.
 
It’s also important because I’m sure a few of you might assume that you get a permanent copy of the demon. That is not the case. Even if it survives the battle, as soon as the character hits your territory, the copy ability ceases to work, it reverts to an Enhancement and is discarded by game rule.
 
If you’ve played orange in the past you might be familiar with Deafening Spirit and be tempted to compare it with Imitating Evil. While there are similarities (they both start as an EE and become an EC) they are completely different ability types. Deafening Spirit converts from an EE to an EC, therefore it is a convert ability. Imitating Evil is a copy ability. That distinction is important so that you don’t become confused and incorrectly apply the game rules of convert to copy or vice versa.
 
Lastly it was asked why we made Imitating Evil CBN. Since I wasn’t the designer of this card I can’t answer that specifically, but I can offer insight into ways it could be interrupted if it wasn’t CBN. One way it could be interrupted is if the demon who is banded could interrupt or negate Enhancements, such as King of Tyrus or if the demon could band to a human like Selfish Kinsman. Since banding a demon and adding a second copy is often going to create a large swing in numbers, the Hero will often have initiative. If a GE is played that can “negate the last evil enhancement” it could still target Imitating Evil (if it wasn’t CBN) assuming no other EEs had been played.
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Offline wyatt_marcum

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Re: Imitating Evil - an explanation
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2017, 04:42:42 PM »
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so if a copied character is CBN, the copy is not?
これは現実の生活ですか。これはただのファンタジーですか。土地のスライドは、現実からの脱出でキャッチ。あなたの目を開きます。見て、空とを参照してください。私はちょうど貧しい少年、同情は要りませんので、私

Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Imitating Evil - an explanation
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2017, 05:06:48 PM »
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so if a copied character is CBN, the copy is not?

Other way around. If Imitating Evil is played while it has the CBN modifier, that does not mean the resulting copied character will be CBN. If the copied character is itself CBN already, then that aspect of it IS copied along with everything else.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Imitating Evil - an explanation
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2017, 10:16:44 AM »
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Gabe, first off, thanks for writing this.

I had a question that I'm hoping you can shed some light on. One of your explanations seemed to contradict another one. You said the REG defines copying the attributes of another card and those attributes are identifiers, strength, toughness, brigade, card type, and reference. In your next explanation you pointed out that the special ability of a card is not included among the attributes, but then you said that the final step of the copying ability activates in that it copies the special ability of the character it's copying. How is it copying the SA if the SA is not one of the copyable attributes?

Also, when you talked about the problem of having a copy of two unique characters in battle, are you saying that you cannot copy a unique character and only generic characters can be copied, or is it something else I'm missing?
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Imitating Evil - an explanation
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2017, 10:21:30 AM »
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Quote
Also, when you talked about the problem of having a copy of two unique characters in battle, are you saying that you cannot copy a unique character and only generic characters can be copied, or is it something else I'm missing?

Unique characters can be copied but they are treated as generic per the ability on Imitating Evil. This is similar to how Innumerable copies an angel, but treats it as a nameless copy.

If there was an EE that said "If used by a unique EC" then the "copy EC" could not use that EE.
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Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline wyatt_marcum

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Re: Imitating Evil - an explanation
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2017, 10:33:13 AM »
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If grapes is played on a card when imitating evil is in battle, is imitating evil shuffled as well?
これは現実の生活ですか。これはただのファンタジーですか。土地のスライドは、現実からの脱出でキャッチ。あなたの目を開きます。見て、空とを参照してください。私はちょうど貧しい少年、同情は要りませんので、私

Offline Watchman

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Re: Imitating Evil - an explanation
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2017, 11:05:51 AM »
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If grapes is played on a card when imitating evil is in battle, is imitating evil shuffled as well?

It would be shuffled as it's treated as an EC in battle, but it will reset back to an EE once it's in the deck.
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Imitating Evil - an explanation
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2017, 11:48:13 AM »
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@Watchman492's question in post #3 - a copy ability copies 2 things by default 1) the card attributes and 2) the special ability.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 12:02:35 PM by Gabe »
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Imitating Evil - an explanation
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2017, 11:55:14 AM »
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@Watchman492's question in post #3 - a copy ability copies 2 things by default 1) the card attributes and the special ability.

Then how come you said the REG doesn't list that as an attribute if it is?
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Imitating Evil - an explanation
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2017, 12:01:55 PM »
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Then how come you said the REG doesn't list that as an attribute if it is?

The special ability is not considered a card attribute. Look up Attributes in the REG Glossary and you will not find the special ability listed.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Imitating Evil - an explanation
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2017, 12:09:59 PM »
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Never mind. I missread your response. I thought you mentioned that the special ability was one of the attributes.

Switching gears, going back to The Guardian's response about generic copy, if KoT is banded in via IE, his SA and attributes are all copied but IE would not be considered another KoT for the purposes of targeting him as a unique character but just his SA and attributes, correct? Would Ehud's Dagger be able to target IE since it copies KoT's king identifier, or not?
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Imitating Evil - an explanation
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2017, 10:27:47 PM »
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Bumping for a reply to my last question. 
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Imitating Evil - an explanation
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2017, 10:51:59 PM »
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Yes, IE would be a King.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Imitating Evil - an explanation
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2017, 08:13:47 AM »
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Thank you.
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