Author Topic: Imitate LS and Moses (CoW) (Read 4735 times)

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #25 on:** July 10, 2017, 03:30:17 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on July 10, 2017, 03:25:00 PM

given the ruling above you are saying you can negate a copy ability that copied a CBN ability, so then you would be able to negate mimicking miracles that copies an evil spirit. would you be able to get SI to negate something like that?

In the imitate example Moses negates a copy ability that resulted in a CBN ongoing ability basically "disappearing" for lack of a better word since it is no longer copied. Negating the copy ability doesn't undo anything that was CBN. In the MM example above, as long as theres no David's Harp around, the copied instant ability is CBN so the copied CBN convert cannot be undone.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #26 on:** July 10, 2017, 03:33:42 PM »

I must not be catching something in this, this makes no sense to me brain...

So if imitate copied a CBN LS, it is not CBN?

Gabe · « **Reply #27 on:** July 10, 2017, 03:41:26 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on July 10, 2017, 03:33:42 PM

So if imitate copied a CBN LS, it is not CBN?

No, the copy ability is not CBN. The ability it copies can be. Right now that includes all of 2 Lost Souls that are CBN because they grant a CBP modifier to another card. Just because the ability it copies is CBN doesn't mean it cannot be "taken away" if the copy ability negated. In the event that happens Imitate can no longer grant CBP to future cards.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #28 on:** July 10, 2017, 03:47:03 PM »

ok I think I get it now, I assumed that a copy ability actually became the ability, but that is not the case. wow this is going to make for some confusing games...

Gabe · « **Reply #29 on:** July 10, 2017, 03:56:12 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on July 10, 2017, 03:47:03 PM

wow this is going to make for some confusing games...

It's pretty simple actually.

Did you play the card that gains CBP from the "copied humble ability" prior to Moses negating all Lost Souls?

1) If yes and you met the "copied humble condition" then it's CBP.

2) If no then it's not.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #30 on:** July 10, 2017, 04:00:31 PM »

wait what? that's what I was asking! if imitate activates and gets to copy a CBN LS, you are saying then its CBN? if moses is already out of course it doesn't work because it prevents imitate, but your saying if imitate goes off then its CBN?

I was referring to copy abilities in general being confusing

Gabe · « **Reply #31 on:** July 10, 2017, 04:10:50 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on July 10, 2017, 04:00:31 PM

wait what? that's what I was asking! if imitate activates and gets to copy a CBN LS, you are saying then its CBN? if moses is already out of course it doesn't work because it prevents imitate, but your saying if imitate goes off then its CBN?

I was referring to copy abilities in general being confusing

I modified my post to make it more clear. I was referring to the character/enhancement/etc that gains CBP, not Imitate.

Both Copy and Redirect are really cool abilities with so few viable cards that they end up being confusing because players aren't used to them. Don't hear me saying they are simple abilities, they aren't. But I get confused by them because I run into them so infrequently.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #32 on:** July 10, 2017, 04:15:15 PM »

so just to be clear, if you copy humble with imitate before moses comes out, does it become CBN or not?

Gabe · « **Reply #33 on:** July 10, 2017, 04:16:46 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on July 10, 2017, 04:15:15 PM

so just to be clear, if you copy humble with imitate before moses comes out, does it become CBN or not?

Quote from: Gabe on July 10, 2017, 03:41:26 PM

No, the copy ability is not CBN.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #34 on:** July 10, 2017, 05:44:56 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 10, 2017, 03:20:04 PM

Evil Spirit is CBN unless David's Harp is active so let's pretend in your example that David's Harp IS active.

I think that works unless I'm missing something.

I was asking if Mimicking would be negateable after copying a CBN ability and since Evil Spirit is only CBN without David's Harp then I wanted to know how it would play out WITHOUT Harp active.

If I understand correctly from other rulings and what people have said, the conversion of Tribal Elder can't be undone because Mimicking copied a CBN ability so special initiative would trigger but the CBN would make Sign of the Rainbow ineffective. Then the attacker would have the option to use Gam's Speech which could negate and discard Mimicking, thus undoing the copy, but not undoing the convert cuz it was CBN and thus cannot be indirectly negated. Is this all right and make sense?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #35 on:** July 10, 2017, 06:53:27 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on July 10, 2017, 04:15:15 PM

so just to be clear, if you copy humble with imitate before moses comes out, does it become CBN or not?

Which card (The soul or Moses) comes down first doesn't change the situation at all. The copy ability is never CBN. When Moses comes down the copy ability is negated and the copied ability ceases to exist.

megamanlan · « **Reply #36 on:** July 11, 2017, 03:54:19 AM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 10, 2017, 06:53:27 PM

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on July 10, 2017, 04:15:15 PM
so just to be clear, if you copy humble with imitate before moses comes out, does it become CBN or not?

Which card (The soul or Moses) comes down first doesn't change the situation at all. The copy ability is never CBN. When Moses comes down the copy ability is negated and the copied ability ceases to exist.

To add to this: The only way that a card would retain that CBP is if it had gained it from the copied effect before Moses came into play and before that LS is negated and is no longer copying the ability. But Imitate's copy of Humble would not grant it CB-anything. As far as I know the only way any LS is CB-anything without granting CBP is the Liners which can't be copied (and I am glad for that. The last thing we need is that mess.)

Josh · « **Reply #37 on:** July 11, 2017, 02:16:22 PM »

Humble LS is a mandatory ongoing ability. Even if Imitate's Copy ability is negated mid-phase and is no longer copying Humble, that doesn't change the fact that Humble's ability was active earlier in the phase, is mandatory, is ongoing, and is CBN.

Seems to me that Humble's ability would persist for the remainder of the phase...?

megamanlan · « **Reply #38 on:** July 12, 2017, 03:45:45 AM »

Quote from: jmhartz on July 11, 2017, 02:16:22 PM

Humble LS is a mandatory ongoing ability. Even if Imitate's Copy ability is negated mid-phase and is no longer copying Humble, that doesn't change the fact that Humble's ability was active earlier in the phase, is mandatory, is ongoing, and is CBN.

Seems to me that Humble's ability would persist for the remainder of the phase...?

Except it doesn't make Imitate CBN and specifically that copy ability.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #39 on:** July 12, 2017, 08:40:00 AM »

it just seems weird for a CBN ability to just disappear like that, it seems counterintuitive to everything else in the game where once a CBN ability activates, it cannot be undone

megamanlan · « **Reply #40 on:** July 12, 2017, 01:01:25 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on July 12, 2017, 08:40:00 AM

it just seems weird for a CBN ability to just disappear like that, it seems counterintuitive to everything else in the game where once a CBN ability activates, it cannot be undone

It's because Copy is an ongoing effect. It's not Instant so it can be stopped at any point.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #41 on:** July 12, 2017, 01:04:25 PM »

but it still brought a CBN ability into play. and that CBN ability is leaving play, which is a first in redemption

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #42 on:** July 12, 2017, 01:22:18 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on July 12, 2017, 01:04:25 PM

but it still brought a CBN ability into play. and that CBN ability is leaving play, which is a first in redemption

It works the same way with any other copy ability that could copy a CBN ongoing effect. There just hasn't been a card with a copy ability widely played enough in the past for this ruling question to come up.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #43 on:** July 12, 2017, 02:40:45 PM »

yea, I think its weird that all copy abilities work that way...

TheJaylor · « **Reply #44 on:** July 12, 2017, 09:50:29 PM »

Quote from: KoalaKing on July 10, 2017, 05:44:56 PM

Quote from: The Guardian on July 10, 2017, 03:20:04 PM
Evil Spirit is CBN unless David's Harp is active so let's pretend in your example that David's Harp IS active.

I think that works unless I'm missing something.
I was asking if Mimicking would be negateable after copying a CBN ability and since Evil Spirit is only CBN without David's Harp then I wanted to know how it would play out WITHOUT Harp active.

If I understand correctly from other rulings and what people have said, the conversion of Tribal Elder can't be undone because Mimicking copied a CBN ability so special initiative would trigger but the CBN would make Sign of the Rainbow ineffective. Then the attacker would have the option to use Gam's Speech which could negate and discard Mimicking, thus undoing the copy, but not undoing the convert cuz it was CBN and thus cannot be indirectly negated. Is this all right and make sense?

So... Can we mimic the miracles and more importantly can we negate said miracles? Or just the mimicking of them?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #45 on:** July 12, 2017, 09:52:13 PM »

Quote from: KoalaKing on July 12, 2017, 09:50:29 PM

Quote from: KoalaKing on July 10, 2017, 05:44:56 PM
Quote from: The Guardian on July 10, 2017, 03:20:04 PM
Evil Spirit is CBN unless David's Harp is active so let's pretend in your example that David's Harp IS active.

I think that works unless I'm missing something.
I was asking if Mimicking would be negateable after copying a CBN ability and since Evil Spirit is only CBN without David's Harp then I wanted to know how it would play out WITHOUT Harp active.

If I understand correctly from other rulings and what people have said, the conversion of Tribal Elder can't be undone because Mimicking copied a CBN ability so special initiative would trigger but the CBN would make Sign of the Rainbow ineffective. Then the attacker would have the option to use Gam's Speech which could negate and discard Mimicking, thus undoing the copy, but not undoing the convert cuz it was CBN and thus cannot be indirectly negated. Is this all right and make sense?
So... Can we mimic the miracles and more importantly can we negate said miracles? Or just the mimicking of them?

If MM copies a CBN ability that removes a character from battle (or any instant effect), that removal cannot be undone, regardless of which card/ability you try to target.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #46 on:** July 13, 2017, 08:08:03 AM »

I'm sorry if I'm not just getting this, but why does it make a difference if its an ongoing ability or a instant ability? why can you negate (or make vanish...because that's a thing in redemption now) the ongoing CBN ability that is copied but not the instant CBN ability?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #47 on:** July 13, 2017, 10:19:49 AM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on July 13, 2017, 08:08:03 AM

I'm sorry if I'm not just getting this, but why does it make a difference if its an ongoing ability or a instant ability? why can you negate (or make vanish...because that's a thing in redemption now) the ongoing CBN ability that is copied but not the instant CBN ability?

In both cases, you aren't negating (undoing) anything. In the case of the ongoing ability, it is simply not longer active from that point onward; nothing is undone. In the case of the instant ability, you can still negate MM and it will no longer be copying the card, but that doesn't undo the instant ability that completed earlier.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #48 on:** July 13, 2017, 10:25:28 AM »

so its no longer active because the ability that brought into play was negated, isn't that just an indirect negate?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #49 on:** July 13, 2017, 10:34:39 AM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on July 13, 2017, 10:25:28 AM

so its no longer active because the ability that brought into play was negated, isn't that just an indirect negate?

By saying brought into play you're trying to compare it to a play ability, which is not a valid comparison. The ability of Humble is causing another ability to exist. Humble being negated causes that ability to cease to exist. Nothing about the copied ability matters; after Humble is negated the copied ability is gone.

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Author Topic: Imitate LS and Moses (CoW) (Read 4735 times)