Author Topic: "Begins a battle" (Read 5556 times)

browarod · « **Reply #25 on:** July 19, 2013, 08:27:53 PM »

So then the demon discard Lost Soul always triggers on every non-Taunt battle, even if they band?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #26 on:** July 19, 2013, 08:34:54 PM »

Under the same logic as Simeon+Anna not triggering Hidden Treasures - No.

Example:

Simeon (Gold) begins a rescue and bands to Daniel (Promo) - On a previous turn Daniel was equipped with Narrow Escape which triggers. Player targets Simeon.

Does Daniel get to play an enhancement in this scenario?

Didn't think so.

Kindly explain why the Rachel+Joesph scenario is any different.

Simeon: Hero may band to any good prophet

Daniel: Negate special abilities on Fortresses, Evil Character, and N.T. Enhancements. May band to a Daniel Hero or look at opponent's hand. Cannot be negated.

Narrow Escape: Allow one Hero to retreat from battle unharmed. Return one good enhancement, except this one, to player's hand.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #27 on:** July 19, 2013, 10:02:54 PM »

Is narrow escape even a card?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #28 on:** July 19, 2013, 10:43:48 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on July 19, 2013, 10:02:54 PM

Is narrow escape even a card?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #29 on:** July 19, 2013, 10:56:48 PM »

I mean I know it's a card but if there's any card we shouldn't rule from its a never used apostles withdraw enhancement. Also the situation does not work because narrow escape is NT and rdt didn't specify he was using the sabbath last turn.

The Guardian · « **Reply #30 on:** July 20, 2013, 03:58:26 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 19, 2013, 01:04:42 PM

I feel like there was a card whose ability required us to rule that "begins a battle" means after all Hero abilities have completed in order for the ability to make sense but I can't remember what it was.

Demon discard Lost Soul...that's what it was.

Here's another one:

Asahel bands to Spy. Spy withdraws. Can Demon d/c LS trigger?

I'm willing to discuss it further, but until then I am inclined to agree with Prof A.

browarod · « **Reply #31 on:** July 21, 2013, 07:51:07 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on July 19, 2013, 06:44:31 PM

The game recognizes many things - Including the fact that Rachel was the hero that began the battle. While Joseph may end up as a lone hero in battle, he didn't start the battle.

This ruling is consistent with the status quo, and makes sense within the confines of the related game rules - Simeon+Anna cannot play off Hidden Treasures, and neither can a Joseph that was searched for by Rachel.

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on July 19, 2013, 08:34:54 PM

Kindly explain why the Rachel+Joesph scenario is any different.

Rachel->Joseph is not any different than Simeon+Anna, that's the point. They both result in a net change of Heroes in battle with the resolution of their special ability. With that in mind, if Rachel is being ruled as beginning the battle by herself, then so should Simeon. I see no logical reason that Rachel should be treated as starting a battle solo but Simeon banding to Anna is treated as both starting the battle. Both characters have special abilities that alter the current state of the Heroes so why are they treated differently?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #32 on:** July 22, 2013, 10:55:48 AM »

Browarod is correct in his logic from my understanding. However, since there are at least two elders on each side of the argument, it seems like it should be discussed on the other side, unless someone can point out a clear ruling/definition that would solve the issue.

jbeers285 · « **Reply #33 on:** July 22, 2013, 11:04:04 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on July 22, 2013, 10:55:48 AM

Browarod is correct in his logic from my understanding. However, since there are at least two elders on each side of the argument, it seems like it should be discussed on the other side, unless someone can point out a clear ruling/definition that would solve the issue.

Is that discussion started or happening on the other side yet?

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #34 on:** July 26, 2013, 10:16:09 AM »

Any updates on this? I am judging a regional tournament this weekend and I imagine this may come up.

Kirk

Gabe · « **Reply #35 on:** July 26, 2013, 10:32:32 AM »

Quote from: Captain Kirk on July 26, 2013, 10:16:09 AM

Any updates on this? I am judging a regional tournament this weekend and I imagine this may come up.

Kirk

Both viewpoints are valid. I advise to let everyone know in advance which way you're going to rule so that they are aware and there is consistency.

SirNobody · « **Reply #36 on:** July 26, 2013, 11:03:19 AM »

Hey,

Back when the issue of how Hidden Treasures works with banding prophets was being ironed out we came up with a play as for Hidden Treasures to explain how it works. I don't know if the play as ever made it into the REG (and if it did if there's anyway to find it now). But the play as was along the lines of, "At the beginning of battle, if a green brigade prophet is the only hero in battle, you may..."

The beginning of battle happens when a Hero enters battle, before it's ability activates. When that happens Hidden Treasures triggers, but activated abilities take precidence over triggered abilities so Hidden Treasures waits for the hero's ability to resolve before it does it's thing. Once the Hero's ability has resolved Hidden Treasures kicks in and starts by checking to see if the hero in battle meets the criteria of being lone, green, and a prophet.

Looking at it another way, exchange has the potential to swap a lot of things. It can switch location, control, "lost soul selected by rescuer's choice," or "targeted by an ability." It can also swap "began the battle" so if one of the characters involved in an exchange is recognized by the game as "began the battle" after the exchange the other character should be recognized as having "began the battle."

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #37 on:** July 26, 2013, 11:08:09 AM »

Thanks Gabe and Tim.

For those attending MW Regionals, Tim is judging T2 2p and I am judging T1 2p. I agree with Tim's logic and will likewise rule that Rachel swapped for Joseph with HT up allows Joseph to play first and that Angel Under the Oak swapped for Samuel with HT up allows for a deck discard.

Kirk

Professoralstad · « **Reply #38 on:** July 26, 2013, 11:11:34 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on July 26, 2013, 11:03:19 AM

Hey,

Back when the issue of how Hidden Treasures works with banding prophets was being ironed out we came up with a play as for Hidden Treasures to explain how it works. I don't know if the play as ever made it into the REG (and if it did if there's anyway to find it now). But the play as was along the lines of, "At the beginning of battle, if a green brigade prophet is the only hero in battle, you may..."

The beginning of battle happens when a Hero enters battle, before it's ability activates. When that happens Hidden Treasures triggers, but activated abilities take precidence over triggered abilities so Hidden Treasures waits for the hero's ability to resolve before it does it's thing. Once the Hero's ability has resolved Hidden Treasures kicks in and starts by checking to see if the hero in battle meets the criteria of being lone, green, and a prophet.

Looking at it another way, exchange has the potential to swap a lot of things. It can switch location, control, "lost soul selected by rescuer's choice," or "targeted by an ability." It can also swap "began the battle" so if one of the characters involved in an exchange is recognized by the game as "began the battle" after the exchange the other character should be recognized as having "began the battle."

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

I agree with that assessment. It is a bit odd, but then again, so are a lot of the nuances of this game. And since Tim and I are the only Elders (as far as I know) who will be there this weekend, I would say that is how it should be ruled. But I'll let Kirk make the final call.

EDIT: Instaposted. Looks like the final call has been made.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #39 on:** July 26, 2013, 04:25:37 PM »

If thats the logic we want to go with, that's fine - It doesn't make a whole lot sense to me, but thats ok.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #40 on:** July 26, 2013, 05:29:25 PM »

I can toss out some more scenarios if you want more confusion about how this works

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #41 on:** July 26, 2013, 05:40:37 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on July 26, 2013, 10:32:32 AM

Both viewpoints are valid. I advise to let everyone know in advance which way you're going to rule so that they are aware and there is consistency.

How is there consistency if we can rule it any way we want? I thought the whole purpose of having the Elder system was to avoid this very issue. Was there no way to come to a consensus on the "other side?" Or was this decision based on a press for time?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #42 on:** July 26, 2013, 06:15:39 PM »

If I band in a purple king after there is a blocker, do I activate Throne of David?

Chris · « **Reply #43 on:** July 26, 2013, 06:18:04 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 26, 2013, 05:40:37 PM

How is there consistency if we can rule it any way we want? I thought the whole purpose of having the Elder system was to avoid this very issue. Was there no way to come to a consensus on the "other side?" Or was this decision based on a press for time?

The argument isn't much more than a week old, and the Elders take some time making a decision. There's no sense faking a community-wide consensus when there isn't one.

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on July 26, 2013, 06:15:39 PM

If I band in a purple king after there is a blocker, do I activate Throne of David

No.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #44 on:** July 26, 2013, 06:19:24 PM »

Quote from: Chris on July 26, 2013, 06:18:04 PM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on July 26, 2013, 06:15:39 PM
If I band in a purple king after there is a blocker, do I activate Throne of David?

No.

Why not? He's getting blocked.

Does Throne activate if The Entrapping Pharisee captures your king?

Gabe · « **Reply #45 on:** July 26, 2013, 06:56:25 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 26, 2013, 05:40:37 PM

Quote from: Gabe on July 26, 2013, 10:32:32 AM
Both viewpoints are valid. I advise to let everyone know in advance which way you're going to rule so that they are aware and there is consistency.

How is there consistency if we can rule it any way we want? I thought the whole purpose of having the Elder system was to avoid this very issue. Was there no way to come to a consensus on the "other side?" Or was this decision based on a press for time?

You don't seriously think I'm suggesting this as a long term decision do you? The consistency I speak of pertained to Kirk and his tournament. I was answering his question only.

For the record I haven't seen any discussion on "the other side".

The Guardian · « **Reply #46 on:** July 26, 2013, 07:07:51 PM »

Quote

Does Throne activate if The Entrapping Pharisee captures your king?

I believe you would get to draw and if there was still a Hero in battle that could play a Purple enhancement then you could do that also.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #47 on:** July 27, 2013, 01:07:01 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on July 26, 2013, 06:56:25 PM

You don't seriously think I'm suggesting this as a long term decision do you?

You don't seriously think I was suggesting that you were seriously suggesting this is a long term decision, do you?

Quote from: Gabe on July 26, 2013, 06:56:25 PM

The consistency I speak of pertained to Kirk and his tournament.

We are talking about major tournaments that precede other major tournaments. I was under the impression that the Elder system was designed (in addition to general rulings throughout the year) to make consensus rulings that would apply to the major tournaments. There have been times past when people wanted to know rulings that would affect Nats in particular. Perhaps I just misunderstood the extent of the Elder system. $:-\$

Quote from: Gabe on July 26, 2013, 06:56:25 PM

For the record I haven't seen any discussion on "the other side".

Jordan mentioned it a few posts up, and since there was time pressure I thought the discussion was underway. My mistake.

The Guardian · « **Reply #48 on:** July 27, 2013, 02:01:17 AM »

Jordan, Tim and I all weighed in so that was the decision. John disagreed so that was the reason that we said further discussion could very well take place, but unless Kirk breaks the game, that should be the ruling for Nationals.

News:

Author Topic: "Begins a battle" (Read 5556 times)

browarod

Lamborghini_diablo

browarod

Chris