Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: egilkinc on May 21, 2009, 08:12:41 AM
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hey,
Can characters in a territory ignore other characters?
REG Glossary: "An ignore card stops an ignored character from entering the Field of Battle."
Tribal Elder (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/tribalelder.htm) bands to Jacob (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/jacob.htm) and Reuben's Torn Clothes (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/reubenstornclothes.htm) is played. Christian Martyr discards Jacob, but the attacker has other Genesis heroes in their territory. Does the Genesis Hero in the territory stop a character from the ignored brigade from entering the Field of Battle?
It seems to me that the Genesis heroes gain the ignore ability. Are they active while in the territory, however (like Household Idols (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/householdidols.htm))?
Thanx,
Gil
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From what I've understood, as wonky as it sounds, that does work. I think it sounds a little crazy, but Tim Maly has assured me that's the case.
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This does sound strange to me, but I suppose that Tim Mierzwerxztbei would be the one to know considering he is our current national champion based on a deck that used this very offense :)
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This does sound strange to me, but I suppose that Tim Mierzwerxztbei would be the one to know considering he is our current national champion based on a deck that used this very offense :)
1) It's "Myxlplyx"
2) I didn't have any non-Genesis Heroes, so it never came up. :)
This arose from a question I had about what characters were repelling good banding cards when Household Idols was active. The answer was, to my surprise, "none" - the artifact itself was ignoring it. I thought I'd be all trickysneaky and gave an example similar to what you suggested to show that it seemed ridiculous to me, and he responded with a "yeah that's right." And then I was all like "oh."
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hey,
If The Garden Tomb (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/thegardentomb.htm) is in play and active, Hushai attacks, and John (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/johnhdeck.htm) is in my territory, does John stop a character from an ignored brigade from entering the Field of Battle?
Seems more than a little wonky to me.
Might I suggest either
1) a new default condition for Ignore that, "Characters that ignore must be in battle for their ignore to stop an ignored character from entering the Field of Battle."
or
2) an errata for The Garden Tomb stating, "If opponent has a Redeemed Soul, then, while they are in battle, Salome, Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Peter, John, and Mary the Mother of James ignore all evil brigades that do not have at least two Characters in play."
L8er,
Gil
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Good catch: It seems like something like that is necessary.
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Good catch: It seems like something like that is necessary.
Agreed. Otherwise, T1 Multi at Nats will need to be renamed TGT Multi.
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Good catch: It seems like something like that is necessary.
Agreed. Otherwise, T1 Multi at Nats will need to be renamed TGT Multi.
That might be the case anyway. It seems that the question this year isn't "will you be playing TGT?" but "what will you be pairing with your TGT offense?". :P
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1) It's "Myxlplyx"
But can you say that backwards?
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It seems to me that a character has to be in battle to be ignoring another character. Additionally, RTC and TGT are granting ignore powers to the specified characters, as opposed to HHI which is universally ignoring all characters with banding ability.
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hey,
Can a character in a territory be immune from another character? If Mary Mag. (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/marymagdalene.htm)is banded in and then withdraws, can the Strong Demon play Wrath of Satan (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/wrathofsatan.htm)and discard her in the territory?
L8er,
Gil
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Characters in territories can certainly be immune. That's all that the "Color Guard" LS does, and other cards like Blindness make it possible without strange situations.
As far as your scenario goes, it's a no-go, because:
"Immunity ceases when the immunity card is removed from battle (e.g., discarded, set aside, returned to hand, etc.)."
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unless it had some type of judas/aaron ability like as long as this character remains in play
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As far as your scenario goes, it's a no-go, because:
hey,
Yup, you're right. Ok, so immunity ends when the character leaves battle, but ignorance "ends when the ignore card is negated or interrupted and discarded." So, if a Garden Tomb John is made to withdraw, according to the ongoing definition of ignore, John would continue ignoring until the end of the battle.
I sure can't find any indication that a character cannot ignore another character from the territory.
L8er,
Gil
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As far as your scenario goes, it's a no-go, because:
hey,
Yup, you're right. Ok, so immunity ends when the character leaves battle, but ignorance "ends when the ignore card is negated or interrupted and discarded." So, if a Garden Tomb John is made to withdraw, according to the ongoing definition of ignore, John would continue ignoring until the end of the battle.
I sure can't find any indication that a character cannot ignore another character from the territory.
L8er,
Gil
Although Tim quoted the REG, I see this as a inconsistency with how ongoing abilities have been defined and refined over the past few years. Mary Mag's immunity should last until the end of the battle phase unless it gets negated.
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Hey,
As far as your scenario goes, it's a no-go, because:
"Immunity ceases when the immunity card is removed from battle (e.g., discarded, set aside, returned to hand, etc.)."
That line from the REG has come up before and the PTB have stated that it is erroneous. Sign of the Rainbow does not stop Baalam's Disobedience.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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That's because Balaam's disobedience cannot be negated. But I agree that just discarding does not negate.
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Hey,
If The Garden Tomb (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/thegardentomb.htm) is in play and active, Hushai attacks, and John (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/johnhdeck.htm) is in my territory, does John stop a character from an ignored brigade from entering the Field of Battle?
I have been treating The Garden Tomb as if it has the play as, "If opponent has a Redeemed Soul, Salome, Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Peter, John, and Mary the Mother of James gain the ability 'ignores all evil brigades that do not have at least two characters in play.'"
As such, just having John in your territory wouldn't result in evil brigades being ignored. He has to enter battle and activate his gained ability, but once he does that even if John leaves battle, the brigades would still be ignored (Similar to how Christian Martyr on Captain of the Host removes Captain from battle but his ability stays in effect).
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I agree with the first part about how brigades are not ignored from territory. However, I disagree that the evil brigades are still ignored if a GT hero is removed. GT states that those certain heroes ignore, not that everyone does. Stating that they gain an ability isn't actually how the card is played, it says that John ignores, not everyone else.
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Hey,
GT states that those certain heroes ignore, not that everyone does. ... it says that John ignores, not everyone else.
When one character ignores it is the only one doing the ignoring, but others can benefit from that fact. (Rebekah, Courage, Widow vs. Goliath - Rebekah is not ignoring Goliath but Rebekah survives because Widow is ignoring Goliath). If John is banded in then leaves battle, John is the one doing the ignoring, but the other heroes that remain in battle benefit from the ignoring John is doing in that the ignored characters cannot block.
Stating that they gain an ability isn't actually how the card is played,
Are you sure? How is the card played? Playing The Garden Tomb as a gained ability is closer to how it is/should be played than John ignoring from the territory, which technically as The Garden Tomb is written, is what it should do.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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If you get rid of John, you are no longer ignoring.
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Hey,
If you get rid of John, you are no longer ignoring.
I am never ignoring anything. John is ignoring. And leaving battle doesn't cause John to stop ignoring.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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If you get rid of John, you are no longer ignoring.
I agree with the ninja on this statement so long as John is no longer in play. Likewise, from Tim's example, if the Widow is removed from play then Rebekah is no longer winning vs. Goliath.
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Yep. This scenario came up at Bryon's tourney:
Chen+King david, cm on King David, can he still block with emperors. Bryon ruled that since David wasn't in battle, emperors could come back in.
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Hey,
I agree with the ninja on this statement so long as John is no longer in play. Likewise, from Tim's example, if the Widow is removed from play then Rebekah is no longer winning vs. Goliath.
If Captain of the Host is removed from play without being negated does his ability continue to affect the battle? Yes.
If Household Idols is removed from play without being negated does it's ability continue to affect the battle? Yes.
But if King David is removed from play without being negated his ability doesn't continue to affect the battle?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Because captain effects the whole battle. John only ignore, it's his ability, HE ignores. Same with King David. Captain's ability is universal.
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But if King David is removed from play without being negated his ability doesn't continue to affect the battle?
King David says "May not be blocked by any member of any royal family." If he's not in battle then the "royal family" isn't blocking him. Yes, his SA stays active, just like Captain. In KD's case it just doesn't really do anything if he's not the one being blocked.
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Hey,
So if John is ignoring Pale Green, and gets discarded. Then later during that battle Forgotten History is played, can John be removed from the game by Forgotten History?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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No, because his non-negated ignore protects him from the effects of pale green cards.
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So special abilities work in the discardpile now? I would understand if the card specifically stated while in the discardpile. Even if it is an ongoing ability it is understood to target CARDS in play, such as forgotten history targets CARDS in the discardpile.
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John was in play when his ability activated and caused him to ignore pale green. John specifically is protected until the end of that phase, or until the ignore is canceled out by e.g. a negate.
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I have been treating The Garden Tomb as if it has the play as, "If opponent has a Redeemed Soul, Salome, Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Peter, John, and Mary the Mother of James gain the ability 'ignores all evil brigades that do not have at least two characters in play.'"
hey,
I'm not sure this is how it should be played as currently worded. Is Household Idols the one ignoring good banding cards?
Household Idols is in the territory and actively ignoring; TGT (as all fortresses are) is active in the territory. As worded, shouldn't it be making it's Heroes actively ignoring?
Because captain effects the whole battle. John only ignore, it's his ability, HE ignores. Same with King David. Captain's ability is universal.
I disagree. Part of "Ignore" is a special ability that affects the whole battle as well - they stop an ignored character from entering battle. If the ignore ability is active (Household Idols, King David that has been removed from battle, and TGT Heroes in play - as TGT is currently worded), those cards should continue to stop an ignored character from entering battle (hence the need for eratta).
L8er,
Gil
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TGT (as all fortresses are) is active in the territory. As worded, shouldn't it be making it's Heroes actively ignoring?
Yes, but those specific Heroes are still the ones who ignore the ECs. HHI does not direct its ability to a character, it universally ignores all banding Heroes.
Part of "Ignore" is a special ability that affects the whole battle as well - they stop an ignored character from entering battle.
... against the ignoring character.
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... against the ignoring character.
hey,
Only if we change the default condition to something like, "Characters that are ignored and are not in battle cannot enter battle against the ignoring character."
That would be a better wording than my first suggestion. As Stamp and SirNobody point out, though, wouldn't this would be an inconsistency involving the ongoing-ness of Ignore?
L8er,
Gil
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Only if we change the default condition to something like, "Characters that are ignored and are not in battle cannot enter battle against the ignoring character."
I don't think that's a change. I think the language assumes the ignore is being applied to a character in battle, e.g. a rescuing Hero ignoring his opponent.
As Stamp and SirNobody point out, though, wouldn't this would be an inconsistency involving the ongoing-ness of Ignore?
No. From the time the ignore activates until the end of that phase (barring an interrupt/negate), that Hero cannot affect the ignored characters, those characters cannot affect him, and those characters cannot enter battle against him.
See also: Bryon's ruling above (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=15832.msg247326#msg247326), stating that when David is in, Emperors are out, but when David is out, Emperors are in.
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Only the hero ignores. That's the bottom line. So if the hero is gone, HE'S NOT BEING BLOCKED. He does not give a "ignore all evil characters" ability to all heroes in battle. That's not how ignore works. Ignore only works for the hero with the ignore ability, so if he is removed, you are NOT blocking him. You are blocking his friends, who do not ignore.
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Hey,
I am opposed to any ruling that results in a character outside of battle ignoring being handled differently than an artifact outside of battle ignoring. There is no need for inconsistency between those two cases.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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So let's say that heroes can ignore form territory. Why would they prevent a character from entering battle? Shouldn't only heroes in battle be able to stop an evil character from entering battle?
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I am opposed to any ruling that results in a character outside of battle ignoring being handled differently than an artifact outside of battle ignoring. There is no need for inconsistency between those two cases.
You're opposed to a ruling that allows for one exceptional case? You must hate a lot of the rulings in the REG, then.
Besides, I would say the strange circumstance of characters keeping out others when they're not even in the battle, and making TGT even more powerful than it already is, would demonstrate plenty of need for this so-called "inconsistency".
Here's the way I see it. My guy is protected from your guy, your guy is protected from my guy, and your guy cannot enter battle against my guy. That covers ignore perfectly, it allows ignore to keep working after the character leaves battle and allows ECs to block if the ignoring character is not in battle. HHI does not specify anybody so it's a universal ignore and no banding Hero can enter. Everything's good. No inconsistency. And the only thing it requires is to say out loud what the REG definition seems to have been assuming in the first place, that the ignoring character is in battle when keeping the other character out.
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hey,
Am I missing something in the rules? I don't see anything in the glossary that assumes that the ignore condition, "An ignore card stops an ignored character from entering the Field of Battle," applies only when an ignoring character is in battle.
And, in the Ignore - How To Play section, the relevant info (If a character is ignored, it can not ... enter ... battle) is written from the perspective of the character being ignored. The same assumption isn't there either.
Why wouldn't either one of these apply to a John or HHI in the territory since the ignore is active?
The thought that ignored characters cannot enter battle against an ignoring character is only half true - the missing half is that once (and for as long as) an ignore is active, it stops the character from entering the battle from wherever it is. There's no such distinction between some "universal" ignore and a character's ignore ability. It's just that we haven't seen the opportunity before for a character in a territory to actively be ignoring.
L8er,
Gil
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Okay, if you block with red dragon, and then are discarded, are all your other evil characters immune to humans? No. Same princple.
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Okay, if you block with red dragon, and then are discarded, are all your other evil characters immune to humans? No. Same princple.
I agree with ninja. This line of thinking makes no sense. Characters with ignore abilities do not convey their ignore powers to other characters. If you rescue with Widow, I block with Nero, and you band in King David, I can still play enhancements to affect Widow. She does not gain David's "ignore royalty" ability, and is thusly fair game.
If David dies or leaves battle, his ignore dies with him. I have never seen anybody ever rule or say otherwise. I don't know why a Garden Tomb ignore would work in territory and give ignore powers to Heroes that aren't listed on the card. That's just ridiculous.
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Hey,
Okay, if you block with red dragon, and then are discarded, are all your other evil characters immune to humans? No. Same princple.
Immunity and Ignore are different abilities. This is one of the ways in which they are different.
I agree with ninja. This line of thinking makes no sense. Characters with ignore abilities do not convey their ignore powers to other characters. If you rescue with Widow, I block with Nero, and you band in King David, I can still play enhancements to affect Widow. She does not gain David's "ignore royalty" ability, and is thusly fair game.
Aaron attacks, blocked by Emperor Claudius, Miriam banded into battle. If Miriam's ignore ability is negated Aaron dies. As long as Miriam's ignore ability is active Aaron does not die. Aaron does not gain the ignore ability, but he does benefit from it.
If David dies or leaves battle, his ignore dies with him. I have never seen anybody ever rule or say otherwise.
Over the years I have seen a lot of players that thought abilities "die" when the character bearing the ability leaves battle. This is not the case and never has been for any ability other than ignore, I don't see any reason why ignore should be different than all the other abilities in this respect.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
Over the years I have seen a lot of players that thought abilities "die" when the character bearing the ability leaves battle. This is not the case and never has been for any ability other than ignore, I don't see any reason why ignore should be different than all the other abilities in this respect.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
And this is where I believe a true "ignore" ability differs from a "cannot be blocked by" ability. Ignore DOES continue until the end of the phase.
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Aaron attacks, blocked by Emperor Claudius, Miriam banded into battle. If Miriam's ignore ability is negated Aaron dies. As long as Miriam's ignore ability is active Aaron does not die. Aaron does not gain the ignore ability, but he does benefit from it.
I actually don't think that this is correct.
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Hey,
And this is where I believe a true "ignore" ability differs from a "cannot be blocked by" ability. Ignore DOES continue until the end of the phase.
Based on the current rules set there is no difference between "ignore" and "cannot be blocked by."
Aaron attacks, blocked by Emperor Claudius, Miriam banded into battle. If Miriam's ignore ability is negated Aaron dies. As long as Miriam's ignore ability is active Aaron does not die. Aaron does not gain the ignore ability, but he does benefit from it.
I actually don't think that this is correct.
I am very, very, very confident that it is correct.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Aaron attacks, blocked by Emperor Claudius, Miriam banded into battle. If Miriam's ignore ability is negated Aaron dies. As long as Miriam's ignore ability is active Aaron does not die. Aaron does not gain the ignore ability, but he does benefit from it.
This is different than Aaron GAINING an ignore ability. If Claudius wants to play an enhancement to kill Aaron, he can do so, and if Miriam leaves battle, Aaron does not ignore Claudius. In the same way, Garden Tomb does not/should not grant ignore abilities to Heroes not named on the card.
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Immunity and Ignore are different abilities. This is one of the ways in which they are different.
You seem to be one of only a handful of people who think so.
Over the years I have seen a lot of players that thought abilities "die" when the character bearing the ability leaves battle. This is not the case and never has been for any ability other than ignore, I don't see any reason why ignore should be different than all the other abilities in this respect.
IT'S... NOT. If the ignoring character stops ignored characters from entering battle against him, then the ability does not have to die in order for this to work the way everyone else seems to think it works. THIS IS NOT A DIFFERENCE. STOP CALLING IT A DIFFERENCE.
I am very, very, very confident that it is correct.
Bryon ruled that since David wasn't in battle, emperors could come back in.
Apparently, it's not correct.
Am I missing something in the rules? I don't see anything in the glossary that assumes that the ignore condition, "An ignore card stops an ignored character from entering the Field of Battle," applies only when an ignoring character is in battle.
You don't see an assumption. That's why it's an assumption. If you saw it, that would be a statement. If you're looking for something indirect, it does link to the rulebook entry on "Winning by Ignore (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/winningbyignoreimmunity.htm)" which talks all about the Hero, not the ignore ability by itself.
Of course, if we're to assume that the rulebook/REG is 100% comprehensive and no assumptions are ever made about standard gameplay, then according to the rules, it is impossible for an Evil Character to win a battle by ignore or immunity, because that entry ONLY talks about the Hero defeating the Evil Character, not the other way around.
At what point are we allowed to just inject a little common sense?
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Bryon ruled that since David wasn't in battle, emperors could come back in.
Apparently, it's not correct.
Huh?? Since when does David's ignore ability stay in battle if he's not there to be blocked? ??? If HE cannot be blocked by royalty, and he is not specifically in battle, then banding Nero into battle is not an illegal play.
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Bryon ruled that since David wasn't in battle, emperors could come back in.
Apparently, it's not correct.
Huh?? Since when does David's ignore ability stay in battle if he's not there to be blocked? ??? If HE cannot be blocked by royalty, and he is not specifically in battle, then banding Nero into battle is not an illegal play.
Read the ruling again. If David is NOT in battle, the Emperors CAN come back in. Bryon's ruling was exactly what you say, and it directly contradicts Tim's theory. We three are all in agreement.
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Four if you include Bryon himself. ;)
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We three were Bryon, myself and Hedge. I guess that would make you the fourth. And that's not including the numerous people across the two ignore threads who just accept it as logical that ignore is played as "my guy in, your guys out; my guy out, your guys in"
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Bryon ruled that since David wasn't in battle, emperors could come back in.
Apparently, it's not correct.
Huh?? Since when does David's ignore ability stay in battle if he's not there to be blocked? ??? If HE cannot be blocked by royalty, and he is not specifically in battle, then banding Nero into battle is not an illegal play.
Read the ruling again. If David is NOT in battle, the Emperors CAN come back in. Bryon's ruling was exactly what you say, and it directly contradicts Tim's theory. We three are all in agreement.
Ok, I was misreading what you said to ninja. I'm still not sure exactly what you were saying there, because it looked like you were saying Bryon was incorrect. At any rate, that's a relief. :)
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I see Tim's point but, I agree with Stephen et al. Just a few comments:
From the REG:
Cards with ongoing abilities that are not negated continue until the end of the phase in which they are discarded or removed from battle (in the case of special abilities on characters and enhancements, unless specified otherwise), or discarded or removed from play (in the case of sites, artifacts, fortresses, lost souls, placed cards, etc…).
So, after a character who ignores enters battle that character continues to ignore until the end of the battle phase unless negated or specified otherwise. That argument supports Tim.
Yet, it was never intended that a ignoring character in a territory could stop another character entering battle. The whole point is that a rescuing Hero can stop certain characters from entering battle. The relevance (as well as the limitations) of continuing to ignore while in a territory is that other things can't be done to that character (shuffled, discarded, set-aside) by the character or brigade it is ignoring.
If there is a hole in the rules that supports a character in a territory stopping another character from entering battle, then we need to clarify that in the rules because, I am not going to allow it otherwise. As Gil cited, it apparently has not come up until now.
Lastly, Artifacts and Characters are not the same and while Tim longs for as much consistency as possible, artifacts have to work differently from characters because of how each activates and interacts with Battle. Ignores on artifacts such as Household Idols are universal ignores whereas ignores on characters allow the character to ignore but are not universal ignores (unless a card specifically states otherwise).
So Tim given the above, what tweaks to the rules would you suggest to clear up confusion?
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Wouldn't is be easiest to just Errata any ignore Artifacts to work more like TGT? (eg: for Household Idols "All evil characters ignore good cards with banding abilities.")
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You do realize how much that'd weaken HHI right?
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I spent the weekend away with my wife for our anniversary. Looks like I missed some fun discussions. (But I had more fun.) :)
"Characters that are ignored and are not in battle cannot enter battle against the ignoring character."
This is a good way to describe the "cannot be blocked by" part of ignore.
The "we can't harm each other" part of ignore must still apply to characters in territory.
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hey,
I'm not opposed to ignore cards that are not characters (in other words, Household Idols' special ability could stay as is). That leaves a strategy/game development option open (where's my "cannot be ignored, prevented, or negated" Ezekiel's Stick?). I'm thinking this could be dealt with via a couple of default conditions rather than play-as. I'm pleasantly surprised that it doesn't look like The Garden Tomb would need changing.
L8er,
Gil
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I see Tim's point but, I agree with Stephen et al. Just a few comments:
From the REG:
Cards with ongoing abilities that are not negated continue until the end of the phase in which they are discarded or removed from battle (in the case of special abilities on characters and enhancements, unless specified otherwise), or discarded or removed from play (in the case of sites, artifacts, fortresses, lost souls, placed cards, etc…).
So, after a character who ignores enters battle that character continues to ignore until the end of the battle phase unless negated or specified otherwise. That argument supports Tim.
Yet, it was never intended that a ignoring character in a territory could stop another character entering battle. The whole point is that a rescuing Hero can stop certain characters from entering battle. The relevance (as well as the limitations) of continuing to ignore while in a territory is that other things can't be done to that character (shuffled, discarded, set-aside) by the character or brigade it is ignoring.
If there is a hole in the rules that supports a character in a territory stopping another character from entering battle, then we need to clarify that in the rules because, I am not going to allow it otherwise. As Gil cited, it apparently has not come up until now.
Lastly, Artifacts and Characters are not the same and while Tim longs for as much consistency as possible, artifacts have to work differently from characters because of how each activates and interacts with Battle. Ignores on artifacts such as Household Idols are universal ignores whereas ignores on characters allow the character to ignore but are not universal ignores (unless a card specifically states otherwise).
So Tim given the above, what tweaks to the rules would you suggest to clear up confusion?
Just wondering if there has been an update on this.