Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Tsavong Lah on August 29, 2008, 06:07:24 PM
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Player 1 RA's with Jacob and plays Reuben's Torn Clothes to ignore black. Can player 2 block with The Winged Leopard?
Jacob:
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 6 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: May band to a silver brigade Hero, or you may play a Genesis Enhancement. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Patriarch • Verse: Genesis 32:24 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 4)
Reuben's Torn Clothes:
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 1 / 6 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate all evil immunity. All Genesis Heroes ignore an evil brigade of your choice. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 37:29 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 10)
The Winged Leopard:
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange/Black • Ability: 9 / 10 • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard a Persian. Immune to white brigade. May band to a Greek. • Attributes: Male Beast (Demon) Greek • Identifiers: OT Male Beast (Demon), Greece • Verse: Daniel 7:6 • Availability: Rock of Ages (Set 14)
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No, Winged Leopord is in fact at least part black.
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Hey,
I had a lengthy discussion on this general topic with Mike Berkenpass and Mark Underwood at nationals. In the end I looked in the REG and found something allong the lines of "in order to ignore a multi color character you must ignore all of it's brigades." So I opened the REG looking for that statement to post in this thread and instead found:
"A multi-colored character is ignored if any of its brigade colors are ignored."
So I'm kinda baffled. Mark, do you remember what that quote I showed you at the end of our discussion was?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne
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"in order to ignore a multi color character you must ignore all of it's brigades."
I think it would be great if they changed the rules to make this true.
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Ignoring one color ignores all, but being immune to one color does not make you immune to the others.
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So I'm kinda baffled. Mark, do you remember what that quote I showed you at the end of our discussion was?
I think that we talking more about immunity, and I think we found 2 apparently conflicting quotes. The first said that to be immune to a multi-colored character that you had to be immune to all of the brigades of that character. The other quote said that be immune to a multi-colored character you only had to be immune to one of their colors. Both of these quotes however were not in the existing REG, but in the potential REG (except with a better name) of the future.
However, that was at the end of Nats, and I was functioning on very little sleep by that point, so I can't be completely sure of any of that :)
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Ignoring one color ignores all, but being immune to one color does not make you immune to the others.
So if I make a rescue with Saul Paul and my opponent blocks and plays an ignore I cant play an enhancement of a different brigade to discard the evil character?
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This is a very good question. I asked Mike Berkenpas about this at Nats(someone rescued with a red hero, the opponent blocked with Anitiochus, the red hero played "ignores gray"), and he said that if you ignore the gray part of Antiochus, he can still play black enhancements.
I think that makes sense. The bigger question is the parent question though, ie, can you block with Antiochus at all if gray or black is being ignored right off the bat? I'm not sure on that one.
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Ignored characters cannot enter battle, and a character ignored in one brigade cannot block in any.
Likewise, if you are ignoring a person of a certain brigade, cards of that brigade cannot harm your character, AND that CHARACTER cannot harm your character regardless of what brigade Enhancements he uses. He can still play Enhancements of any available brigade.
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So if the situation went like this:
RA Benjamin.
Blocked with The Winged Leopard.
My initiative, so I play Reubens Torn Clothes and ignore black.
Could my opponent then play orange enhancements to target me still?
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No he can't play orange enhancements to target you...based on a ruling made when I asked a similar question at least.
http://cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=10627.msg158845#msg158845
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What if someone ignored pale green and I blocked with that orange demon that one demon (I choose to play pale green) can pale green enhancements I play target the the hero who is ignoring me?
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Okay, this is now the third time the same question has been asked, and the answer is still no.
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What about multicolor enhancements (Preaching the Truth)? Does ignoring one brigade ignore the enhancement?
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Yes. Your character cannot be affected by ANY character or Enhancement bearing that brigade.
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Yes. Your character cannot be affected by ANY character or Enhancement bearing that brigade.
And Curse/Covenant.
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Hey,
Last time we discussed ignore we decided that it basically had 4 elements:
(1) I'm immune to you
(2) You're immune to me
(3) You can't enter battle (if you are a character and not already in battle)
(4) If you are already in battle you do not stop me from rescuing a lost soul
Key: I = ignoring cards, You = ignored cards
It makes sense that ignoring one brigade of a multicolor card would be enough to get the benefit of (3) and (4). But since you aren't immune to a card unless you are immune to all of it's brigades, wouldn't you not gain the effects of (1) and (2) unless you ignore all of their brigades?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne
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1 and 2 are analogies. Ignore is different from Immune.
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It makes sense that ignoring one brigade of a multicolor card would be enough to get the benefit of (3) and (4). But since you aren't immune to a card unless you are immune to all of it's brigades, wouldn't you not gain the effects of (1) and (2) unless you ignore all of their brigades?
Why? If I'm ignoring gray, how can Antiochus - who is gray - enter battle?
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Hey,
1 and 2 are analogies. Ignore is different from Immune.
I don't think it's just an analogy. I think it actually is immunity.
Why? If I'm ignoring gray, how can Antiochus - who is gray - enter battle?
You might want to read my post again. I was saying that the "cannot enter battle" part would keep Antiochus out of battle, but that the "they can't hurt each other" part would not work.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne
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I would think that if the evil character is already in battle, and the ignore says "ignore one ___ brigade evil character," then the whole evil character would be ignored, but if the enhancement says "Hero ignores ____ brigade," then the alternate brigade would be effective in stopping the hero.
Jeremy
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You might want to read my post again. I was saying that the "cannot enter battle" part would keep Antiochus out of battle, but that the "they can't hurt each other" part would not work.
You're right, I read that backwards.
However, I don't remember ever describing ignore as mutual immunity + win. Can you link to the thread where the discussion ended as such so I can review?
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Hey,
However, I don't remember ever describing ignore as mutual immunity + win. Can you link to the thread where the discussion ended as such so I can review?
http://cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=11557.45
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne
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I noticed that the word you submitted was your own. Bryon's rephrasing of the same states:
3) protects the ignored card and ignoring cards from each other
His interest seems to be in protecting the cards from each other. Your wording limits it to the brigade only.
But thank you for reminding me that I asked several questions in that thread that were never answered to my satisfaction.
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1. Since Antiochus is Gray and Antiochus is Black, if I ignore one of those brigades pre-block Antiochus cannot enter battle, correct?
2. If during the battle phase, I ignore one of those brigades, while Antiochus is blocking, then I ignore all of him, black and gray, correct?
I'm just making sure I get this straight in my head.
Godspeed,
Mike
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1. Correct.
2. I would guess that it is under debate on the "other side," however, if I am incorrect, than you are correct.
Jeremy
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2. If during the battle phase, I ignore one of those brigades, while Antiochus is blocking, then I ignore all of him, black and gray, correct?
No, you ignore gray brigade, which means no gray card can harm you and no card played on a gray character can harm you.
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So I wouldn't be able to play a black brigade enhancement on an Antiochus in that situation, right?
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Hey,
So I wouldn't be able to play a black brigade enhancement on an Antiochus in that situation, right?
You could play a black enhancement on him. The question you meant to ask was can you harm the hero with black enhancement. I would say yes. Schaef, I believe, would say no.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redempitonne
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It has been no for as long as I have known to ask the question of others, and for the exact reason that I have given you.
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Interesting. I can ignore 1 of the brigade colors of a multi-color character and cannot be harmed by the others, although the multi-color character can still play the off colors.
Godspeed,
Mike
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Not only do I agree with Schaef, but I'd go further and say that if I am immune to gray, then I'm immune to all gray cards and enhancements used by Gray cards. So, I'm immune to Antiochus Ep.
I like the 4-part definition of ignore, but I think that you should get ALL 4 parts of the ability when you ignore a multi-color character.
I don't really like the rule that you have to be immune to all brigades to be immune to a multi-colored character, especially if you can ignore a multi-colored character by ignoring only one color. It seems very inconsistent to me.
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Hey,
I like the 4-part definition of ignore, but I think that you should get ALL 4 parts of the ability when you ignore a multi-color character.
I don't really like the rule that you have to be immune to all brigades to be immune to a multi-colored character, especially if you can ignore a multi-colored character by ignoring only one color. It seems very inconsistent to me.
So you are sugesting we change the immunity ruling? (That's what I was arguing at nationals until we looked it up and found out I was wrong)
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne
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I don't really like the rule that you have to be immune to all brigades to be immune to a multi-colored character, especially if you can ignore a multi-colored character by ignoring only one color. It seems very inconsistent to me.
I think there are always going to be parts of the game that can seem inconsistent depending on how you look at them. I think the key here is the difference between protection and targeting.
The way I look at it:
A multi-color character is like having a very large, powerful warship. It has lots of weapons to use but is also easy to shoot at because of its size. Because of its size it makes a lot of sound, is easy to see, gives off a lot of heat, etc. If I want to attack it, I can use any kind of targeting system because of its multiple signatures. Simalirly, it is easy to target and ignore/capture/discard a multi-color character.
On the other hand, if I want to be protected from it, it is very difficult. Sure I'm protected from its 24" guns but then it shoots missiles at me. I submerge my ship to protect me from missiles but then it launches torpedos at me. In comparison, immunity may protect me from their blue, purple, and green weapons but he then uses a gold weapon and I'm done for.
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oooooo wee oooo ooOOOooo, ooooo wee oooo ooOOOooo ramming speed ye scurvy seadogs, we'll take er' where she floats
Godspeed,
Mike
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I don't really like the rule that you have to be immune to all brigades to be immune to a multi-colored character, especially if you can ignore a multi-colored character by ignoring only one color. It seems very inconsistent to me.
I think there are always going to be parts of the game that can seem inconsistent depending on how you look at them. I think the key here is the difference between protection and targeting.
The way I look at it:
A multi-color character is like having a very large, powerful warship. It has lots of weapons to use but is also easy to shoot at because of its size. Because of its size it makes a lot of sound, is easy to see, gives off a lot of heat, etc. If I want to attack it, I can use any kind of targeting system because of its multiple signatures. Simalirly, it is easy to target and ignore/capture/discard a multi-color character.
On the other hand, if I want to be protected from it, it is very difficult. Sure I'm protected from its 24" guns but then it shoots missiles at me. I submerge my ship to protect me from missiles but then it launches torpedos at me. In comparison, immunity may protect me from their blue, purple, and green weapons but he then uses a gold weapon and I'm done for.
What color are the ship's offense numbers? If I am immune to blue, am I not immune to the character that is blue?
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Well, analogies aren't perfect.
What color are the ship's offense numbers?
I guess I wouldn't see the numbers as having a color. The character has numbers and the character has brigade colors. The character is not defined by but possesses different qualities like numbers, brigade color, and special abilities.
If I am immune to blue, am I not immune to the character that is blue?
It could be seen that way; I think it is when talking about things like "I am immune to humans so I'm immune to the character that is human". I see a difference in that brigade color is more like something that the character belongs to and not the character itself. another example -
I happen to be a secret agent from the USA and I find the bad guy I'm looking for. I have all the weapons and I'm ready to take him out. I call my boss to confirm the order to kill. My boss responds with "I'm sorry but he just acquired diplomatic immunity with us. You can't touch him". I still have all the weapons but I'm not allowed to use them (as a USA agent). I also happen to be a British agent so I call my British boss. He tells me that the bad guy made a deal with some of their law enforcement in exchange for protection. So as a British agent, I still can't touch him. I'm frustrated so I finally call my Nepalese boss. He says that they have no agreements with this guy so as far as their concerned go ahead. So under Nepalese orders I take down the bad guy.
Having diplomatic/legal immunity from one country doesn't protect you from being targeted by others. Other types of immunity, like being immune to humans, are more like being immune to little girls. It doesn't matter what nationality(brigade color) you are, I'm still immune to little girls.