Cactus Game Design Message Boards

So here's the situation:

My opponent attacks with Abram, I block with Wandering Spirit banded to Strong Demon. My opponent plays Book of Hozai and then Numerous as the Stars which he exchanged for Zebulen who is ignoring Strong Demon, but not ignoring Wandering Spirit.

So in this situation Abram + Zebulen + Book of Hozai = 5/6 + 3/3 + 3/3
and Wandering Spirit + Strong Demon = 3/4 + 9/10
But I'm not sure how the ignoring interacts in this situation, how do I count Strong Demon and Zebulen?

But Strong Demon should count against Abram, shouldn't he, Abram isn't ignoring them.

So Abram isn't immune to strong demon, but SD doesn't count for battle outcome?

I've always found situations like this, where some characters are ignoring and others are not, to be one of the most confusing in Redemption. As I attempt to answer, please understand that this is my interpretation of what I think it accurate and not the official elder ruling unless another elder wants to back me up.

Book was played on Abram so he gets to use it's numbers for determining battle outcome. Zebulun's ignore doesn't grant any sort of protection to Abram, only to Zebulun and only against the ignored character.

Zebulun is 3/3 vs Wandering Spirit 3/4 so Zebulun is losing. Abram is 5/6 + 3/3 for book giving him 8/9 vs Wandering Spirit 3/4 and Strong Demon 9/10. The evil characters total 12/14 but Wandering Spirit has used 3/3 on Zebulun already leaving the Evil Characters 9/11 remaining to fight Abram.

Unless another Enhancement is played, both Heroes are losing.

characters already in battle and ignored are treated as though they were not in battle for purposes of determining battle
outcome

I believe the referenced portion of the REG, part 4 of ignore, only pertains to the ignoring character, not any non-ignoring characters in battle. Ignore didn't used to offer protection to non-ingoring characters in battle. It's possible that changed and I either don't remember or wasn't aware.

Immune

When there are more than two characters in a battle that is affected by an immune ability you must follow a different process to determine the state of the battle and what characters in battle are being defeated. That process is defined as follows: Each character in battle that is not immune to any opposing characters in battle is being defeated if the total strength of all characters on the opponent's side of battle is greater than or equal to the total toughness of all of the characters on its side of battle. Each character in battle that is immune to at least one opposing character in battle is being defeated only if the total strength of the characters that it is not immune to on the opponent's side of battle is greater than or equal to the total toughness of all of the characters on its side of battle. If all heroes in battle and all evil characters in battle are being defeated, then the battle is in the mutual destruction state. If all heroes but not all evil characters in battle are being defeated, then the battle is in the evil character(s) winning state. If all of the evil characters but not all of the heroes in battle are being defeated, then the battle is in the hero(es) winning state. And if not all of the heroes in battle and not all of the evil characters in battle are being defeated, then the battle is in the stalemate state.

Ignore

An ignore ability has four parts:

• it grants the ignoring card immunity to all cards being ignored
• it grants the ignored cards immunity to the ignoring card
• characters not in battle and ignored cannot enter battle (i.e., you cannot choose to bring them into battle and they cannot be targeted by an ability that would bring them into battle)
• characters already in battle and ignored are treated as though they were not in battle for purposes of determining battle outcome

An ignore ability is ongoing. Part (1) above targets the cards that gain the ignore status. Parts (2) and (4) above target the cards that are ignored. Part (3) above has no target.

Ignoring Part (4) of ignore for the moment, and using the rules from the immunity page, we get this:

Abram (5/6) and Book of Hozai (3/3) is being defeated by Wandering Spirit (3/4) and Strong Demon (9/10).
Zebulun (3/3) is being defeated by Wandering Spirit (3/4).
Wandering Spirit (3/4) is being defeated by Zebulun (3/3), Abram (5/6) and Book of Hozai (3/3).
Strong Demon (9/10) is NOT being defeated Abram (5/6) and Book of Hozai (3/3).

Which basically agrees with Gabe in the end result, but this:

The evil characters total 12/14 but Wandering Spirit has used 3/3 on Zebulun already leaving the Evil Characters 9/11 remaining to fight Abram.

doesn't fit with the scenarios from the immunity page.

I think (4) is more there to keep ignore a battle winning ability, since mutual immunity, as given by (1) and (2) is usually a stalemate, than to effect larger battles.

The interpretation of how (4) plays into larger battles seems to be the point of contention - I tend to side with Gabe, but that may not be what the rules actually say.

Point 4 is pretty clear: characters already in battle and ignored are treated as though they were not in battle for purposes of determining battle outcome.

It doesn't say only in relation to the ignoring card, it says for determining battle outcome, to me that reads that once you get to the end and are counting up the numbers, ignored cards aren't taken into consideration.