Author Topic: Ignore being Restrict (Read 2050 times)

kariusvega · « **on:** June 19, 2017, 01:35:59 AM »

"An ignore special ability is an ability that keeps its targets from targeting or being targeted by a specified set of
cards. It also allows a character using an ignore ability to win a battle regardless of normal battle conditions and
keeps ignored characters from entering battle."

This is the description for ignore. Anyone who knows about TGT prior to the rule change knows it eliminated a phase of the game. What is curious is.. How did restricting a player from completing game actions ever become attached to an ignore ability?

"An ignore ability has four parts:
1. The ignoring card cannot be targeted by an ability that is on a card it is ignoring, or on a card
played on that card, and when comparing the strength of the ignored character to the toughness of
the ignoring character, the strength of the ignored character is treated as zero.
2. The ignored card cannot be targeted by an ability that is on a card that is ignoring it, or on a card
played on that card, and when comparing the strength of the ignoring character to the toughness of
the ignored character, the strength of the ignoring character is treated as zero."

This all makes perfect sense..

"3. Characters not in battle and targeted as ignored cannot enter battle."

How in the world did this restrict ever intuitively become attached to ignore?

We go from restriction of targeting to outright restriction from lines 1 and 2 to 3.. Is there any explanation for this?

I'm really having a hard time understanding how a character or card is "protecting the battlefield" or "restricting" players from playing cards into the battle field or adding cards to battle with ignore

When ignore is really only a matter of a character or cards treating others as not being in battle for the purposes of battle resolution. Is it, perhaps, necessarily complicated?

Xonathan · « **Reply #1 on:** June 19, 2017, 01:44:17 AM »

I think part three is there because of old cards that had the phrase "cannot block" like three nails which later became ignore.

kariusvega · « **Reply #2 on:** June 19, 2017, 01:46:17 AM »

"Restrict
Last Updated: 8/10/2015 (v3.0.0)
Released: 7/26/2011
General Description
A restrict ability keeps a player from performing an action that they would normally be allowed to perform.

● The phrases “player may not”, "no player may" and "no ability card may be played" mean the same as
“restrict”."

kariusvega · « **Reply #3 on:** June 19, 2017, 01:49:06 AM »

i understand that restrict "targets a player" and ignore targets cards of different alignment, but in reality we all know the player is restricted in the ignore situations mentioned

currently there is some kind of window(blocking from hand) but i'm still feeling like these should just be all out separated

either it's a restrict or not is what i'm seeing then adjusting from there

The Guardian · « **Reply #4 on:** June 19, 2017, 10:17:21 AM »

Quote

i understand that restrict "targets a player" and ignore targets cards of different alignment, but in reality we all know the player is restricted in the ignore situations mentioned

That's the kind of thinking that got abilities so tangled in the past (i.e. heal is a search, choose the blocker is a withdraw, etc).

Even though an ignore ability has the same essential outcome as an ability that said "Restrict opponent from blocking with X," there is no need to tangle them--they are distinct abilities.

Josh · « **Reply #5 on:** June 19, 2017, 10:33:29 AM »

But why does Ignore have to stop characters from entering battle? That's how Ignore has always been played, but if Ignore abilities didn't exist now, and someone came up with the idea for a new ability called "Ignore", (3) wouldn't exist because everyone would recognize that restricting (English definition) ECs from blocking is a big NPE.

The Guardian · « **Reply #6 on:** June 19, 2017, 12:29:27 PM »

That's a matter of opinion. I think the change to the ignore ruling (allowing characters to block from hand or characters protected in territory to block even if they will subsequently be ignored) was the perfect balancing factor.

Ignore used to be way OP and would lead to NPE (specifically pre-block ignore). However, with the rule change, a character can now enter battle and be ignored, but that character gets infinite initiative. They can do all kinds of nasty things and then at the very end, simply play something to negate the ignore ability in order to not lose the battle.

Ignore is a high-risk, high reward play. I believe it's good for the game to have some of those elements. Not to mention, if ignore (general ignore or pre-block ignore) was still so powerful and strong, I feel like we'd see it show up more in the decks people use for major tournaments. Over the past couple of months, the only significant ignore card I've still seen used is The Garden Tomb. Even then, it rarely made a difference, and often was far more useful in giving Mary Mother of James her CBN banding.

kariusvega · « **Reply #7 on:** June 19, 2017, 12:31:16 PM »

well ironically the same kind of untangling logic has also yielded such distinctions such as heal and resurrect

where simply having resurrect saves a ton of card ability space and is way more intuitive

The Guardian · « **Reply #8 on:** June 19, 2017, 12:36:30 PM »

Heal and resurrect are two completely different abilities.

kariusvega · « **Reply #9 on:** June 19, 2017, 12:36:46 PM »

they are now

The Guardian · « **Reply #10 on:** June 19, 2017, 12:38:07 PM »

So I'm not sure I see your point.

Ignore and restrict are different abilities.

Heal and resurrect are different abilities.

Don't we all agree on this?

kariusvega · « **Reply #11 on:** June 19, 2017, 12:48:00 PM »

precisely..

by the way to clarify, prior to heal and resurrect becoming distinct abilities a heal ability could be used in the same turn to resurrect a character discarded in a different phase and heal also had a search component because of this.

so apparently ignore existed before restrict, which explains this entanglement

The Guardian · « **Reply #12 on:** June 19, 2017, 01:39:46 PM »

There is no entanglement. Part of something ignore does has the same outcome as something restrict does.

It's like a "Draw 1" ability having the same outcome as "Add the top card of deck to hand" even though one is a draw ability and one is an add to hand ability.

Entanglement happens when we treat those two abilities as the same thing.

kariusvega · « **Reply #13 on:** June 19, 2017, 01:58:44 PM »

well the fact remains there is restriction in ignore and it is clearly because ignore came before restrict

this also explains why house hold idols and three nails were previously and effectively restricting players from playing cards into the battlefield (which intuitively is how those cards should be treated in my opinion, as restrict abilities) now there is a middle ground, which is respectable and clearly due to NPE

however, i really do feel these restrictions should be ironed out of ignore and cards like household idols and three nails should return to actual restrict abilities rather than being tangled into ignores with a prevent??

The Guardian · « **Reply #14 on:** June 19, 2017, 02:04:06 PM »

If Household Idols/Three Nails said "No player may attack with a banding Hero/block with a demon" then it would be a restrict.

Restrict targets players. Ignore targets characters.

I am not targeting you by ignoring your character.

kariusvega · « **Reply #15 on:** June 19, 2017, 02:05:10 PM »

right but that's from a bottom up perspective stopping at the table where in fact from the top down the player is being restricted from completing a game action which meets the definition of restrict

The Guardian · « **Reply #16 on:** June 19, 2017, 02:08:26 PM »

I am not stopping you from a game action (blocking) by ignoring a character. You can still block depending on what other characters you have available.

I am targeting a specific (or group of) character(s) with an ignore ability which makes them unable to block.

kariusvega · « **Reply #17 on:** June 19, 2017, 02:20:47 PM »

okay so this is where the targeting becomes an issue

currently it's ruled that if a player draws 5 or more in a turn rescues and is ignoring characters (any characters) and foreign wives blocks, she is still considered ignored even though when her ability completes she is cbn protected from being targeted by ignore abilities

Gabe · « **Reply #18 on:** June 19, 2017, 04:52:30 PM »

Is she protected when the ignore targets her?

kariusvega · « **Reply #19 on:** June 19, 2017, 05:04:17 PM »

it seems like the way abilities complete she should be

i mean come on we all know ignore has a restrict component here. by the way, this is not something i expect any immediate ruling change on or anything mostly for casual discussion and consideration

The Guardian · « **Reply #20 on:** June 19, 2017, 07:16:39 PM »

No we don't...ignore does not stop a player from blocking. It merely limits the available blockers the opponent can choose.

If my ignore limits you to 0 blockers, it has the same net effect as an ability restricting you from blocking, but it's still an ignore ability.

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Author Topic: Ignore being Restrict (Read 2050 times)

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