Author Topic: Ignore (Read 7902 times)

BubbleBoy · « **on:** May 26, 2010, 08:06:34 PM »

Ignore needs to change. It is by far the most complicated game function of Redemption.

I think that whenever possible Redemption should take the stance of making cards do what we would think that they do reading them for the first time, and then clearly explain the rest in the rules. In the case of ignore, it is apparent from the confusion stirred by the HHI thread that it doesn't do either of those things.

In my humble opinion, I think it is a very bad idea to group "May not block" and "Have no effect" abilities in the same category as "Ignore". If we took the prevent from entering battle portion out of ignore, it would not only stop the vast majority of the pre-block ignore problem (TGT), but it would make things so much simpler. And I don't think it's too late to make such a change that at this point in time, although it might be after a few more sets.

Anyone else have opinions about ignore?

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #1 on:** May 26, 2010, 08:10:51 PM »

New card idea.

Name: The Boards
Type: WC Hero and WC EC
Stats: 9001/0
Special Ability: This character ignores any valid points. Argue for 10 pages. CBN unless Admin is in play.
Rarity: Common

MichaelHue · « **Reply #2 on:** May 26, 2010, 08:16:38 PM »

Ignore is fine.

L2P

There are only two cards with ignore abilities that don't make perfect sense based on the Rulebook and REG explanations: HHI and Large Tree. HHI needs very little clarification to make it easy to use. Large Tree is just weird, but I'm fairly sure that an REG Play-As could solve any problems with that as well.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #3 on:** May 26, 2010, 08:20:18 PM »

I say the cannot enter battle part should simply target said characters. It makes sense according to cards like Large Tree, which REQUIRE that ignore target them to work, and it'd take some of the edge off. You could block from hand, but you'd immediately have no effect in battle. So, you still need to do SOMETHING to get past the ignore, but you arent entirely restricted.

This also makes sense when you consider that you cant ignore what you don't know is there.

.... and I still think all ignore abilities that are not on characters should "transfer" to characters. Thats really the only way the RTC ruling makes sense in my opinion.

So, in my opinion, ALL Ignore abilities should do the following:

Y character(s) ignore X character(s), which means
1. Targeted X characters in play may not enter battle
2. Targeted X characters have no effect in battle, so their numbers mean nothing.
3. Targeted X characters and the ignoring Y characters are protected from each other.

This would fix ALL ruling disputes about the situation, explain how Large Tree works / fix the "no target" wierdness of the restrict-from-battle ability, and lessen the overpoweredness of preblock ignore.

So, for an example, Reubens Torn Clothes, selecting grey brigade, would use the suggested rules like this:

All Genesis Heroes ignore all Grey Brigade Evil Characters, which means
1. Grey Brigade Evil Characters in play may not enter battle.
2. Grey Brigade Evil Characters have no effect in battle, so their numbers mean nothing.
3. Grey Brigade Evil Characters and the ignoring Genesis Heros are protected from each other.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 26, 2010, 08:26:07 PM »

Ignore isn't complicated. If I ignore you you can't enter battle and you cannot directly effect me. By changing ignore it gets more complicated because you have to convince all the rest of the people to play with new rules. You shouldn't change rules you should ban cards.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #5 on:** May 26, 2010, 08:28:17 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on May 26, 2010, 08:26:07 PM

Ignore isn't complicated. If I ignore you you can't enter battle and you cannot directly effect me. By changing ignore it gets more complicated because you have to convince all the rest of the people to play with new rules. You shouldn't change rules you should ban cards.

But one part of ignore doesnt even make SENSE.

The "may not enter battle" section apparently has NO targets... So cards like Large Tree technically shouldn't even work, because its a Cannot be Ignored ability, which is a protect, which stops it from being targeted. So, if the character you put Large Tree on isnt even being targeted to stay out of battle, what good does Large Tree do? hmmmm?

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #6 on:** May 26, 2010, 08:33:03 PM »

Yeah, there is DEFINITELY a problem with ignore. That isn't the question. The question is how to solve it. I like my idea better than Lambo's, but his is at least the second best option I have seen, and if everyone hates me I will put my vote on that.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 26, 2010, 08:40:23 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on May 26, 2010, 08:28:17 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on May 26, 2010, 08:26:07 PM
Ignore isn't complicated. If I ignore you you can't enter battle and you cannot directly effect me. By changing ignore it gets more complicated because you have to convince all the rest of the people to play with new rules. You shouldn't change rules you should ban cards.

But one part of ignore doesnt even make SENSE.

The "may not enter battle" section apparently has NO targets... So cards like Large Tree technically shouldn't even work, because its a Cannot be Ignored ability, which is a protect, which stops it from being targeted. So, if the character you put Large Tree on isnt even being targeted to stay out of battle, what good does Large Tree do? hmmmm?

Why does targeting even matter? Besides don't ignores target brigades any way?

MichaelHue · « **Reply #8 on:** May 26, 2010, 08:47:06 PM »

This really has nothing to do with whether people like you or your proposed option. There really isn't much of a problem with ignore, in most cases it works perfectly fine and is easy to understand with very little explanation. HHI and Large Tree are, as far as I know, the only exceptions. Actually Kindness is too, but who cares?

In what situation is there a problem with Large Tree? "Cannot be" is usually a protect, but "Cannot be negated" does not mean "Protected from negation", you just can't negate it. "Cannot be ignored" should work similarly, regardless of the ignore being used, even if it can't be negated. There isn't a precedent apart from CBN cards, but that's hardly a problem, as no other card has a similar ability. HHI is similarly unique (haha). As long as those two cards have sufficiently updated and explained Play-as'es, there is no problem with Ignore.

And, contrary to popular belief, saying "THIS HAS TO CHANGE" hardly ever works to get a rule change because you don't think something makes sense.

What RTC ruling are you referring to, Lambo?

As for ignoring something you don't know exists...ever heard of ignorance?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #9 on:** May 26, 2010, 08:52:25 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on May 26, 2010, 08:40:23 PM

Why does targeting even matter? Besides don't ignores target brigades any way?

Again, if targeting doesnt matter, then The Large Tree is USELESS in what it was supposed to do, which is allow a character to enter battle despite preblock ignore.

Also, I was careful not to say ignore X brigade. Examples:

Journey to Egypt: Set Hero aside for one turn. Upon return, Hero has access to any Lost Soul site and ignores Egyptians.

False Prophecy: Evil Character repels any non-Prophet.

Caleb: Caleb may use any empty Lost Soul site from opponent to gain access to a Lost Soul held in a site of the same color. May band with Joshua. Caleb ignores Giants

Eve: Hero ignores all female Evil Characters.

Etc...Ignores can ignore more than just brigades.

Quote from: MichaelHue on May 26, 2010, 08:47:06 PM

What RTC ruling are you referring to, Lambo?

Where removing all genesis heroes from battle would allow the opponent to add the ignored brigade into battle again.

MichaelHue · « **Reply #10 on:** May 26, 2010, 08:57:39 PM »

Large Tree is only useless if you look at it as a protect. It could just as easily be looked at as a unique ability type: Cannot be Ignored. Similar to the way Cannot Be Negated is not a protect, I don't think Cannot be Ignored should be treated as such.

The RTC ruling makes perfect sense to me. Whether the ability "transfers" makes no difference. If there are no Genesis heroes, there's no ignore ability active.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #11 on:** May 26, 2010, 09:03:22 PM »

I find that to be a less effective work around. Either way, a ruling needs to change based on Cannot be Ignored.... which according to the REG right now, is a protect.

Also, Cannot Be Ignored has existed since Angel Wars.

The Schaef · « **Reply #12 on:** May 26, 2010, 09:04:42 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on May 26, 2010, 08:28:17 PM

So cards like Large Tree technically shouldn't even work, because its a Cannot be Ignored ability, which is a protect, which stops it from being targeted. So, if the character you put Large Tree on isnt even being targeted to stay out of battle, what good does Large Tree do? hmmmm?

I already told you this is not how this card works. If you want to argue for change, do so, but don't give other players a bum steer with bad information when you have already been told otherwise.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #13 on:** May 26, 2010, 09:12:00 PM »

I'm just going off what the REG says... theres no Cannot be Ignored category in there yet....

Besides, this is all you said about this:

Quote from: The Schaef on May 26, 2010, 03:19:34 PM

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on May 26, 2010, 03:17:01 PM
According to the REG, Cannot Be is a Protect ability.

I'm not going to get into the Cannot Be Ignored debate. It is its own animal.

Quote
This is yet another reason Why I say ignore needs to be redone.

A lack of clarity on "cannot be ignored" does not convince me that ignore needs to be redone. I can tell you that the prevailing wisdom of the moment is not to treat it as "protect from ignore" any more than "cannot be negated" is treated as "protect from negate".

"Prevailing wisdom of the moment" doesn't sound like it's an official rule that CBIgnored is not a protect.

The Schaef · « **Reply #14 on:** May 26, 2010, 09:43:46 PM »

You're welcome to get all the additional opinions you want, it still doesn't make it okay to mislead other players.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #15 on:** May 26, 2010, 09:45:32 PM »

You even SAID there was a lack of clarity on Cannot be Ignored... you're confusing me now.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #16 on:** May 26, 2010, 10:27:27 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on May 26, 2010, 09:43:46 PM

... it still doesn't make it okay to mislead other players.

If people are being misled by things derived from the REG itself, then there really is something wrong with the game.

The Schaef · « **Reply #17 on:** May 27, 2010, 12:46:48 AM »

So because someone could read the protect section and conclude that "cannot be negated" means "protect from negate" and is therefore a protect ability, you take that to mean there is something wrong with the game?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #18 on:** May 27, 2010, 01:22:27 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on May 27, 2010, 12:46:48 AM

So because someone could read the protect section and conclude that "cannot be negated" means "protect from negate" and is therefore a protect ability, you take that to mean there is something wrong with the game?

Except Cannot Be Negated has its own section in the glossary.

The Schaef · « **Reply #19 on:** May 27, 2010, 07:16:00 AM »

If referring to the REG would provoke people to go read it and if doing so would eliminate confusion, the previous thread on ignore would have been like two pages, instead of 19 pages of me explaining the same concept over and over and over again.

Having just had that discussion, you're not in a good position to tell me that people wouldn't be confused just because you have a place in the REG you can tell them to look. So if we're accepting Bubble's logic for the sake of this argument, my question to him stands.

And my response to you also stands: saying the REG proves "cannot be ignored" is a protect is misleading to readers because a). it doesn't say that explicitly, you infer that from reading a portion of the REG, and b). this is a confusion that you are creating by introducing this logic into the discussion, when outside the lawyering atmosphere of the boards, 98% of the players understand and play cards like Large Tree without issue. It probably needs to be addressed but it's not a massive epidemic that has brought the entire game grinding to a halt.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #20 on:** May 27, 2010, 08:36:35 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on May 27, 2010, 07:16:00 AM

So if we're accepting Bubble's logic for the sake of this argument, my question to him stands.

If by my logic you mean this...

Quote from: BubbleBoy on May 26, 2010, 10:27:27 PM

If people are being misled by things derived from the REG itself, then there really is something wrong with the game.

...and by your question you mean this...

Quote from: The Schaef on May 27, 2010, 12:46:48 AM

So because someone could read the protect section and conclude that "cannot be negated" means "protect from negate" and is therefore a protect ability, you take that to mean there is something wrong with the game?

...then what do you want me to add to this...

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on May 27, 2010, 01:22:27 AM

Except Cannot Be Negated has its own section in the glossary.

?

By the way, I do think there is something wrong with the game. Not only is pre-block ignore too powerful, but ignore in general is just more confusing than it needs to be. And we could fix both those problems with a few easy steps. However, it doesn't seem like anything is going to be changed. (Then again, I have not seen the new set yet, so I can't tell for sure whether TGT will get nerfed enough for me to be happy, but ignore is still a more awkward ability than it needs to be.)

Also, the REG is way too outdated. We need to get the new REG done and fast - hopefully before nationals.

Korunks · « **Reply #21 on:** May 27, 2010, 08:57:21 AM »

I disagree on getting the new REG in place before nationals. It should be ready just after nationals, majorly redefining every rule in the game in a few months before nationals would be an absolutely catastrophic action. I say please hurry, but release for next tournament season!!

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #22 on:** May 27, 2010, 09:01:43 AM »

Quote from: Korunks on May 27, 2010, 08:57:21 AM

I disagree on getting the new REG in place before nationals. It should be ready just after nationals, majorly redefining every rule in the game in a few months before nationals would be an absolutely catastrophic action. I say please hurry, but release for next tournament season!!

I would agree normally, but in this case rulings are already being made based on the new document, so waiting until after nationals to release it could be even more catastrophic.

The Schaef · « **Reply #23 on:** May 27, 2010, 09:20:35 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on May 27, 2010, 08:36:35 AM

...then what do you want me to add to this...
Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on May 27, 2010, 01:22:27 AM
Except Cannot Be Negated has its own section in the glossary.
?

Something that would give me any confidence that pointing someone to a part of the REG that would answer their question would make things less confusing.

The point of my statement is that the preceding thread proves that people will quite readily confuse themselves even if that answer exists, and even if you tell them where to find it. So that answer does not solve the problem you present where people get themselves confused.

That's not the only instance I could point to, either, where someone misinterprets something in the rules, and even after I explain things to them, continue to cling to that misunderstanding. There are 50 more threads on the boards exactly like that one.

In other words, telling me that someone could misread the REG and get confused doesn't really tell me anything about the game being messed up, and telling me that someone could look at the REG and get the right answer means even less to me at this particularly cynical stage in my life.

Bryon · « **Reply #24 on:** May 27, 2010, 10:00:29 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on May 26, 2010, 08:28:17 PM

The "may not enter battle" section apparently has NO targets...

Don't think of it as "may not enter battle." Think of it as "protect the field of battle from having this type of character enter it." Then it all makes sense.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on May 26, 2010, 08:28:17 PM

So cards like Large Tree technically shouldn't even work, because its a Cannot be Ignored ability, which is a protect,

Wrong. "Cannot be ignored" is NOT a protect. Cannot be ignored is its own separate ability, like CBN:
In a FBTN battle, a CBN ability works IN SPITE of the FBTN status.
In a "Ignore Gold evil characters" battle, a CBIgnored character can block IN SPITE of the Ignore status.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on May 26, 2010, 08:28:17 PM

So, if the character you put Large Tree on isnt even being targeted to stay out of battle, what good does Large Tree do?

It gives the king "CBIgnored status," which allows him to block even if there is a ignore state in battle.

News:

Author Topic: Ignore (Read 7902 times)

Rawrlolsauce!

Lamborghini_diablo

TheHobbit13

Lamborghini_diablo

TheHobbit13

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

The Schaef