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An ability cannot gain cannot be I/P/N retroactively; it has cannot be I/P/N when played or not at all.
I realized yesterday what (I think) the issue is, which I believe may need to be corrected.QuoteAn ability cannot gain cannot be I/P/N retroactively; it has cannot be I/P/N when played or not at all.I believe that needs to say "activated," not "played" --abilities are activated, not played, so those lines in the entries are simply worded incorrectly and thus causing the confusion.If put in territory, Sabbath Breaker is "played" as a character, however his ability has not yet activated. If he blocks with Humble LS in effect, then his ability activates and can then gain CBP at that moment.
Quote from: The Guardian on July 24, 2017, 12:59:14 PMI realized yesterday what (I think) the issue is, which I believe may need to be corrected.QuoteAn ability cannot gain cannot be I/P/N retroactively; it has cannot be I/P/N when played or not at all.I believe that needs to say "activated," not "played" --abilities are activated, not played, so those lines in the entries are simply worded incorrectly and thus causing the confusion.If put in territory, Sabbath Breaker is "played" as a character, however his ability has not yet activated. If he blocks with Humble LS in effect, then his ability activates and can then gain CBP at that moment.So if I blocked with an EC earlier in the game and I blocked later with humble lost soul out the EC is not CBP? That's a lot to keep track of. If you say no to this then when Fruits/Armor's enter battle they can gain cbi with ram's horn.
I noticed, and if you say it over and over again it doesn't make it more believable to me. The ability on the trigger activates when the armor enters battle, so I think that should be CBI with Ram's Horn active.
Quote from: TheHobbit on July 24, 2017, 02:10:49 PMI noticed, and if you say it over and over again it doesn't make it more believable to me. The ability on the trigger activates when the armor enters battle, so I think that should be CBI with Ram's Horn active.Triggering an ability is not the same as activating an ability. An ability cannot be triggered unless it is already active.
Quote from: TheHobbit on July 24, 2017, 02:10:49 PMI noticed, and if you say it over and over again it doesn't make it more believable to me. The ability on the trigger activates when the armor enters battle, so I think that should be CBI with Ram's Horn active.What you think or believe doesn't have anything to do with whether you're wrong or not. Activating a trigger and activating an ability are completely different things. The triggered abilities are ongoing abilities that begin at the same time as all the others, when the enhancements are placed. That's when they have CBI or not.
Triggered abilities are not ongoing inherently
A triggered ability is a type of ongoing ability
Yes it is a type of ongoing ability in the sense that it persists while not being active. " The Trigger" is different from "the triggered ability" is different from "Trigger abilities". So probably not the best wording in the REG. I think what is meant to be said is "Trigger abilities are a type of ongoing abilities" because when the actual triggered ability is being explained it is first delayed (delayed abilities are not ongoing) and can have an ongoing or instant effect. Basically I am hearing the argument for armors/fruits not being activated again as: Triggered abilities are ongoing. They activate in territory and remain active but do not take effect until the given condition of the trigger is met. But Triggered abilities are not ongoing, because the effects of the trigger are not implemented when you play the card. What is ongoing is the condition of the trigger, which activates and persists until it is met. Triggered abilities are a type of ongoing ability because they persist until the condition of the trigger is met then activate after (and may still if the effect of the trigger is ongoing), but not ongoing in the sense that they activate and remain active when you play the card.
If the condition and the effect of the ability are one ability and you activate them together, then there is a contradiction when these placed enhancements are both ongoing and instant because you can negate ongoing abilities across phases but not instant abilities. What about The Holy Spirit, or any placed enhancement that has a search/draw trigger, and music leader ? If the THS activates together at one time then an opponent's music leader would not be triggered each time a NT hero enters battle and you search because THS's ability was already activated and not activated again when a NT hero enters battle.
Quote from: TheHobbit on July 24, 2017, 06:23:47 PMIf the condition and the effect of the ability are one ability and you activate them together, then there is a contradiction when these placed enhancements are both ongoing and instant because you can negate ongoing abilities across phases but not instant abilities. What about The Holy Spirit, or any placed enhancement that has a search/draw trigger, and music leader ? If the THS activates together at one time then an opponent's music leader would not be triggered each time a NT hero enters battle and you search because THS's ability was already activated and not activated again when a NT hero enters battle.I fail to see how anything I've said results in a contradiction or results in ability use triggers not working. The triggered effect is still an instant effect that begins, completes, triggers things, and can be interrupted. The reason the instant effects don't gain CBI from Ram's Horn is because triggering a triggered ability does not meet the definition of playing an enhancement.
Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 24, 2017, 06:41:29 PMQuote from: TheHobbit on July 24, 2017, 06:23:47 PMIf the condition and the effect of the ability are one ability and you activate them together, then there is a contradiction when these placed enhancements are both ongoing and instant because you can negate ongoing abilities across phases but not instant abilities. What about The Holy Spirit, or any placed enhancement that has a search/draw trigger, and music leader ? If the THS activates together at one time then an opponent's music leader would not be triggered each time a NT hero enters battle and you search because THS's ability was already activated and not activated again when a NT hero enters battle.I fail to see how anything I've said results in a contradiction or results in ability use triggers not working. The triggered effect is still an instant effect that begins, completes, triggers things, and can be interrupted. The reason the instant effects don't gain CBI from Ram's Horn is because triggering a triggered ability does not meet the definition of playing an enhancement.Music leader has the word "use" too. If you are not playing the armors in battle nothing is being triggered when you draw/search from the effect of the armor's trigger. Similarly, you are not using THS either when the search is triggered. Notice that Music leader does not say "If opponent searches".I am starting to think uses/used and play are distinct terms or that music leader is being played incorrectly when he triggers off triggers that have already been played in territory. Honestly "use" to me means activating a cards ability, and use to you means playing a card. Either way You say that instant effects of triggers don't activate:"Armor doesn't gain CBI when it enters battle because nothing is activating when it enters battle." So how does the "uses" on ML trigger from a search by an armor/fruit in battle? Same thing with THS, by your logic, the search is not activating or being played. If nothing is activated being played/used then how does ML trigger?
The majority of other uses of the word "use" are just English and in the case of Ram's Horn mean played by.
