Author Topic: HT VS. JT (Read 3568 times)

Wings of Music · « **on:** July 31, 2010, 06:42:51 PM »

Hey everyone,

I have another Q for you:

Does Jerusalem Tower protect the deck from Harvest time's first half of the special ability?

JT - No opponent may remove a card from holder's draw pile. Draw pile may still be searched and/or shuffled.

HT - If your opponent has no Lost Soul in play, search their draw pile for a Lost Soul and put it into their territory. Shuffle draw pile.

Blessings,
~Wings

Professoralstad · « **Reply #1 on:** July 31, 2010, 06:57:43 PM »

Currently, no, because Jerusalem Tower is a prevent and HT cannot be negated (since it is a dominant). That is currently being discussed as a change following Nationals this year however, where Jerusalem Tower would be errata'd to become a protect. So play it as a prevent for now, and check back here after Nats (or at Nats if you are going) to see what changes have been made.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #2 on:** August 01, 2010, 12:23:36 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on July 31, 2010, 06:57:43 PM

Currently, no, because Jerusalem Tower is a prevent and HT cannot be negated (since it is a dominant). That is currently being discussed as a change following Nationals this year however, where Jerusalem Tower would be errata'd to become a protect. So play it as a prevent for now, and check back here after Nats (or at Nats if you are going) to see what changes have been made.

Ok, keep me updated when things are chosen

crustpope · « **Reply #3 on:** August 01, 2010, 10:00:54 PM »

Yeah, I see how this wants to happen based on the wording of JT but it has been played as a prevent for so long, why change it to a protect now?

This is a continual problem between these two abilities and I dont really see it being cleared up any time soon. It is almost going to have to be in the worded SA "prevent X from happening" or "Protect X from this ability" from now on...either that or just a ruling will have to be made on each card when it comes out whether it is a prevent or a protect.

Gabe · « **Reply #4 on:** August 01, 2010, 10:04:53 PM »

Are there any cards in recent yearts that don't already follow the system you describe?

JT was created prior to modern definitions of prevent and protect. That's why the wording isn't clear.

crustpope · « **Reply #5 on:** August 01, 2010, 10:25:53 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on August 01, 2010, 10:04:53 PM

Are there any cards in recent yearts that don't already follow the system you describe?

not that I know of

Quote from: BrianGabe on August 01, 2010, 10:04:53 PM

JT was created prior to modern definitions of prevent and protect. That's why the wording isn't clear.

Yes, but it has always been ruled as a prevent...so why not "Play As" it so that it does not confuse people who have always played it a certain way. I just think this ruling, if it becomes official, is unnecessary and problematic.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #6 on:** August 02, 2010, 12:17:42 AM »

The problem came up when it was brought to everyone's attention that a JT in one player's territory will stop any card that hits all Decks from hitting any of them (id est, Given Over to Egypt).

Gabe · « **Reply #7 on:** August 02, 2010, 01:15:38 AM »

No, it was being discussed by TPTB long before that discussion came up.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #8 on:** August 02, 2010, 06:34:36 AM »

Quote from: crustpope on August 02, 2010, 12:28:22 AM

Why did I get a minus one for posting this?

Some people think that the -1 means "I disagree," while some others just give -1 to people at random. I, for instance, will be giving Master KChief a -1 for everything he posts from now on, because my local Gamestop was closed when I went there yesterday and I'm still annoyed.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #9 on:** August 02, 2010, 11:56:05 AM »

Just to make sure I am track with this conversation, JT does not stop HT from being played and fully using its ability because it is a dominant. Correct?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #10 on:** August 02, 2010, 12:18:58 PM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on August 02, 2010, 11:56:05 AM

Just to make sure I am track with this conversation, JT does not stop HT from being played and fully using its ability because it is a dominant. Correct?

Currently, yes.

In the future, TBD.

Master KChief · « **Reply #11 on:** August 02, 2010, 02:44:21 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on August 02, 2010, 06:34:36 AM

Quote from: crustpope on August 02, 2010, 12:28:22 AM
Why did I get a minus one for posting this?

Some people think that the -1 means "I disagree," while some others just give -1 to people at random. I, for instance, will be giving Master KChief a -1 for everything he posts from now on, because my local Gamestop was closed when I went there yesterday and I'm still annoyed.

uh, gamestops kinda close early on sundays... -_-

Wings of Music · « **Reply #12 on:** August 02, 2010, 03:48:49 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on August 02, 2010, 12:18:58 PM

Quote from: Wings of Music on August 02, 2010, 11:56:05 AM
Just to make sure I am track with this conversation, JT does not stop HT from being played and fully using its ability because it is a dominant. Correct?

Currently, yes.

In the future, TBD.

Ok, cool!

Btw since it has been ruled as a prevent for so long, why change?
What are the grounds that would cause a new look on JT ruling?

Alpho · « **Reply #13 on:** August 04, 2010, 09:18:41 PM »

Lol! I see you had to ask the question Wings. Well at least it was answered simply!

Wings of Music · « **Reply #14 on:** August 05, 2010, 11:22:09 AM »

Quote from: Alpho on August 04, 2010, 09:18:41 PM

Lol! I see you had to ask the question Wings. Well at least it was answered simply!

Yea, and if we would have played by this, I could have had a chance to win that game with you!! Lol

Alpho · « **Reply #15 on:** August 05, 2010, 11:48:28 AM »

Maybe maybe............

Korunks · « **Reply #16 on:** August 05, 2010, 12:23:54 PM »

Any ruling on JT to make it a protect really irritates me. Cards that do not function as they were intended (Split Altar, Satan's folly, etc.) can't get an errata because "we don't errata cards to make them more useful" and yet we are considering errating JT to make it more useful? Why errata JT, it has been played consistently and it is known how it works. Why does it get special treatment when other cards have needed errata far sooner than JT.

fyero · « **Reply #17 on:** August 05, 2010, 02:05:40 PM »

so does Hezzy's sig ring work the same way as JT. Can HT still work even with HSG up since it is worded the same way as JT...

Wings of Music · « **Reply #18 on:** August 05, 2010, 03:35:17 PM »

Quote from: fyero on August 05, 2010, 02:05:40 PM

so does Hezzy's sig ring work the same way as JT. Can HT still work even with HSG up since it is worded the same way as JT...

Its funny you bring that up...I brough this question foward because I was playing a game with Alpho and he had a JT/Hez sig ring combo...so I was wondering if HT still holds its ability when presented with this scenerio...

Alpho · « **Reply #19 on:** August 05, 2010, 04:07:45 PM »

Quote from: Wings of Music on August 05, 2010, 03:35:17 PM

Quote from: fyero on August 05, 2010, 02:05:40 PM
so does Hezzy's sig ring work the same way as JT. Can HT still work even with HSG up since it is worded the same way as JT...

Its funny you bring that up...I brough this question foward because I was playing a game with Alpho and he had a JT/Hez sig ring combo...so I was wondering if HT still holds its ability when presented with this scenerio...

It was beautiful...........

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** August 05, 2010, 04:20:45 PM »

Quote from: fyero on August 05, 2010, 02:05:40 PM

so does Hezzy's sig ring work the same way as JT. Can HT still work even with HSG up since it is worded the same way as JT...

Yes. HSR is also a prevent, and dominants cannot be prevented.

crustpope · « **Reply #21 on:** August 05, 2010, 05:35:49 PM »

I have heard that HSR is a protect and the wording is the same so they should both be ruled the same.

Red Warrior · « **Reply #22 on:** August 05, 2010, 05:51:51 PM »

Hezy's Ring: No opponent may search any draw pile or discard pile.
Play As: Opponents are prevented from searching any draw pile or discard pile

From the REG...

Protect Abilities
...
Is prevented from being …
Cannot be …
May not be …
May only be … by
Must be … by
...
Notice that each of the abilities above does not prevent a special ability. They only limit the special ability to other targets.

By definition HSR is a prevent as it doesn't not LIMIT an opponent's target, it fully restricts (Prevents) it.

In order for JT to be a protect it would need to center on "No CARDS may be..." instead of "No OPPONENT may". Thus, as worded, it is a closed case "Prevent", and that seems perfectly logical to me.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #23 on:** August 05, 2010, 05:53:08 PM »

Quote from: crustpope on August 05, 2010, 05:35:49 PM

I have heard that HSR is a protect and the wording is the same so they should both be ruled the same.

From the REG:

Hezekiah’s Signet Ring
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: No opponent may search any draw pile or discard pile. • Play As: Opponents are prevented from searching any draw pile or discard pile. • Identifiers: None • Verse: II Chronicles 32:22 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Rare)

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Author Topic: HT VS. JT (Read 3568 times)