Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Does Book of Jasher become an exact copy of the enhancement?  Is it still Book of Jasher at the same time?

If Book of Jasher copies a banding enhancement and opponent discards all banding cards, does that take out BoJ? 
At the same time, if they played a card that discarded all books, would that take out BoJ?

Does it also copy the brigade?  If i rescue with Soldier of God, they block me with The Bear, I play Freedom to target a character in territorry, then play BoJ, could I target The Bear or is he immune?

Book of Jashar becomes an exact copy of the previous enhancement. This means (to me) that anything that can target the first enhancement can target Book. Anything that the first enhancement can target can be targeted by Book.

However, I think that anything that would target Book of Jashar but NOT the other enhancement (e.g. "Discard a Book enhancement", "discard a blue enhancement" assuming the first enhancement is not blue, ) would NOT be able to target Book of Jashar after it has copied an enhancement, because copying IMO should mean "takes on all characteristics of and only characteristics of the copied card". Consider Innumerable, which becomes a nameless copy of an Angel. Once it is used, it cannot be targeted as an enhancement, because it is now a character. I think the same type of thinking would apply here.

I am certain that you can't use Freedom! then BoJ to target Bear. BoJ takes on all the characteristics of Freedom! one of which is its brigade.

As the new REG is not yet official, I would argue that that part should be changed, unless there is a good reasoning for it to be that way. If I take a blank sheet of paper and use it in a copier to copy a letter, that sheet of paper is no longer a blank sheet, but now has the characteristics of my letter.

I think That next set's gonna have more copy cards...

According to the new REG, "The copy card is treated as both the copy card and the copied card."

I have to agree that this is how copy cards should be treated.  Book of Jashar can be targeted as both Book of Jashar and Freedom! (if that's the card it copied).

I also found this in the current REG:

A “copy” card is not a banding card. Therefore, it is not prevented by Household Idols.

A "copy" card is not a banding card prior to being played so HHI would not prevent it from copying a banding card.  I have trouble understanding why it wouldn't prevent the banding ability from activating.  After it's played, if it copies a banding card then it is also treated as a banding card and can be targeted accordingly.

HouseHold Idols is a prevent, not a negate. So after its become a banding enhancement its no longer targetable by HHI. (I think)

I thought HHI was an ignore...xp

According to the new REG, "The copy card is treated as both the copy card and the copied card."

I have to agree that this is how copy cards should be treated.  Book of Jashar can be targeted as both Book of Jashar and Freedom! (if that's the card it copied).

This seems a bit strange to me.  So would The Bear be immune to BoJ or not in this case?  He clearly is immune to Freedom but you're saying that BoJ is both red and blue at that point and according to scenarios with Paul, The Bear would be targeted by BoJ.  It just seems weird that The Bear is immune to Freedom but not it's exact copy.   

So if it's both, any card with a banding ability aren't even to enter battle then.

You can't ignore an enhancement, only a character.

Also, for that silver enhancement that copies an angel, would it also copy any abilities gained in set-aside?

Innumerable
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Treat this card as a nameless copy of any angel in battle. When this card leaves battle, discard it. • Identifiers: NT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Revelation 5:11 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Rare)

The elders will make their decision in due time, but if Innumerable copies, then wouldn't it copy the card? Gained abilities are not printed on the card, so I don't see why they would be copied. I guess the ultimate clarification will either verify the literal translation, or create a Redemption "understanding" of copy.

Of course, I tend to read things wrong anyway, so I am eager to see the response.

Hey,

You can't ignore an enhancement, only a character.

You can ignore an enhancement, but ignoring an enhancement doesn't stop that enhancement from entering battle like it stops characters from entering battle.  So ignoring an enhancement just means you're immune to it and it's immune to you (which is then completely irrelevant for banding enhancements since they aren't trying to target "you" anyway).

Does Book of Jasher become an exact copy of the enhancement?  Is it still Book of Jasher at the same time?

If Book of Jasher copies a banding enhancement and opponent discards all banding cards, does that take out BoJ?  At the same time, if they played a card that discarded all books, would that take out BoJ?

The current version of the New REG says the following about Copy Abilities:

"Copying a card copies all attributes of the card.  The ability of the copied card activates as the last part of completing the copy ability.  The special ability of the copied card is applied in addition to the special ability of the copying card.  All other attributes of the copied card replace the attributes of the copying card."

Book of Jashar maintains the "history" of being Book of Jashar but once it's ability takes effect it's "current state" is not Book of Jashar. 

An ability that says "if a card with 'book' in the title is played..." would be triggered by Book of Jashar even though the cards title doesn't include 'book' when the trigger is carried out.  A negate last ability could negate Book of Jashar because those sort of abilities reference the cards "history". 

But anything that references the cards current state such as "Negate a blue brigade enhancement in battle" or "Discard all good banding cards" only considers the attributes of the card it copied (plus the copy ability itself which is the only part of Book of Jashar that isn't lost in the copy transformation).  So if you copy Freedom you'd have to negate it as a Red enhancement, and if you copy a banding card it would be discarded by Torn Mantle.

Note that copy is an ongoing ability and the copy ability is not lost in the transformation so an "interrupt the battle" ability would interrupt the copy ability and the card would revert to having the attributes of Book of Jashar until the interrupt is completed.
 
For those wondering, the "attributes" of a card include: strength, toughness, brigade, card type, reference, ability, card title, and artwork.

Also, for that silver enhancement that copies an angel, would it also copy any abilities gained in set-aside?

Yes.  It's not copying the physical card it's copying an angel.  You could even have a situation where it is copying a copy of an angel (if innumerable is played, the original angel in battle is removed from battle then another copy of innumerable is played).

If i rescue with Soldier of God, they block me with The Bear, I play Freedom to target a character in territorry, then play BoJ, could I target The Bear or is he immune?

The Bear is immune to Red Brigade, Soldier of God is a red brigade hero, so The Bear is immune to Soldier of God.  Since The Bear is immune to Soldier of God it is immune to all enhancements played on Soldier of God regardless of the brigade of those enhancements.  So no Book of Jashar cannot target The Bear.

A blue hero using Coat of Many Colors to play Freedom followed by Book of Jashar is a better example question.  And the answer is still no.  Book of Jashar becomes Freedom and Red brigade before you carry out the copied ability, so when the copied Freedom is choosing a target The Bear is immune to it because at that point it is Red.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Which of these two could target the copied Freedom?

Based on the following quote from Nobody, it would seem that only "Discard Red" would target the copied Freedom:

But anything that references the cards current state such as "Negate a blue brigade enhancement in battle" or "Discard all good banding cards" only considers the attributes of the card it copied (plus the copy ability itself which is the only part of Book of Jashar that isn't lost in the copy transformation).  So if you copy Freedom you'd have to negate it as a Red enhancement, and if you copy a banding card it would be discarded by Torn Mantle.

Self is at least partly a copy ability, right?

Not really. Other copy abilities transform one type of card into another type that it is copying. This is not really the case with Self, as it remains an EC. I would describe it more as a "mirror" ability, but it is the only card with such an ability, so I don't think "mirror" will make it as an official Redemption term. 

If I choose the blocker and use Self from my hand, does my opponent pick the hero?

Your opponent would be controlling Self at the time, so he would choose one of your Heroes to mirror. Something tells me it would be a bad idea to CtB Self, as I bet your opponent would have something to use on him if he has any defense at all...

If I have Self in my territory and then choose it as the blocker, does it keep its original status or do they choose now?

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No. Self's ability is actually an identifier-type ability that activates when he enters play. It doesn't reactivate every time he goes into battle.

Does Self increase or decrease if the hero it is copying does?

Yes, I believe this has been ruled on before.

same for Innumerable.

I would assume this as well.