Author Topic: Hopefully I Can TRUST You All to Answer These Questions PROUDLY (Read 2595 times)

TheJaylor · « **on:** January 23, 2014, 03:19:38 PM »

#1 If I play Trust, do I have to take back all the enhancements except Trust or can I leave a weapon on my hero and keep the other enhancements I played?

Trust, purple enhancement 0/0
Hero may withdraw from battle unharmed. All good enhancements played this battle may return to owner's hand except this one.

#2 Did we ever establish Angel's Sword vs. Proud Pharisee? My guess is that Angel's Sword would allow the hero to play first since it activated before Proud Pharisee but I want to confirm this.

Angel's Sword, silver enhancement, weapon class, 3/2
If blocked by a human Evil Character, Hero may play the first enhancement.

Proud Pharisee, gray evil character, 2/6
(Irrelevant drawing)... If you have played no Enhancements this turn, you may play an Enhancement.

Lampy 2.0 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2014, 03:23:07 PM »

In regards to "Trust," the card says any other enhancements played that battle return to hand. If you didn't play that weapon on your hero that battle, then it would stay.

And also, I think "Angel's Sword" would trigger first if it is equipped to a hero as a weapon.

AJ · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2014, 03:37:03 PM »

1 weapons played before that battle stick
2 AS doesnt goes before proud im sorry im just so proud of my post

The Guardian · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2014, 03:38:32 PM »

I thought Proud Phar would go first since AS is triggered by being blocked and the EC blocking includes the completion of its special ability.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2014, 03:40:58 PM »

1. If you choose to return any other enhancements, you must also return Trust.
2. Proud Pharisee will trigger before Angel's Sword. AS does not prevent the ability of PP, and only allows you to play the next enhancement once the EC is finished with the process of blocking.

The Guardian · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2014, 03:44:18 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on January 23, 2014, 03:40:58 PM

1. If you choose to return any other enhancements, you must also return the weapon.
2. Proud Pharisee will trigger before Angel's Sword. AS does not prevent the ability of PP, and only allows you to play the next enhancement once the EC is finished with the process of blocking.

FTFY

TheJaylor · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2014, 04:00:09 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on January 23, 2014, 03:40:58 PM

1. If you choose to return any other enhancements, you must also return Trust.
2. Proud Pharisee will trigger before Angel's Sword. AS does not prevent the ability of PP, and only allows you to play the next enhancement once the EC is finished with the process of blocking.

1. Darn. So, weapons are considered "played this battle" even if they were played on the hero in a different battle or in territory?
2. So after PP plays their enhancement then I'd still get to play my enhancement even if I was winning right? Being able to "play the first enhancement just means "next" enhancement then?

#3 If PP played Idle Gossip would I still get to play my enhancement in the side battle or would Angel's Sword reactivate and no longer function because you're not being "blocked"?

Red · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2014, 04:04:10 PM »

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on January 23, 2014, 04:00:09 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on January 23, 2014, 03:40:58 PM
1. If you choose to return any other enhancements, you must also return Trust.
2. Proud Pharisee will trigger before Angel's Sword. AS does not prevent the ability of PP, and only allows you to play the next enhancement once the EC is finished with the process of blocking.
1. Darn. So, weapons are considered "played this battle" even if they were played on the hero in a different battle or in territory?
2. So after PP plays their enhancement then I'd still get to play my enhancement even if I was winning right? Being able to "play the first enhancement just means "next" enhancement then?

#3 If PP played Idle Gossip would I still get to play my enhancement in the side battle or would Angel's Sword reactivate and no longer function because you're not being "blocked"?

Enhancements are only considered played when the special ability activates. See Darius' Decree/CWD vs Good weapons.

The Guardian · « **Reply #8 on:** January 23, 2014, 04:06:02 PM »

An enhancement is "played" when it activates its ability, not when it is put on a character (as in a weapon).

Yes.

Not sure on the Idle Gossip, need to think that one over a bit.

Redoubter · « **Reply #9 on:** January 23, 2014, 05:03:57 PM »

First, agree with everyone else that the EC blocking involves completion of ability, so PP's play goes first. Second, agree with everyone else about the weapons bit.

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on January 23, 2014, 04:00:09 PM

2. So after PP plays their enhancement then I'd still get to play my enhancement even if I was winning right? Being able to "play the first enhancement just means "next" enhancement then?

It depends. If the character is removed from battle and you don't gain Special Initiative off of the ability that caused the removal, then no, you cannot play.

So, if the character with AS is not the only character in battle, and is removed due to the enhancement PP plays (or 2K Horses, similar cards, as well, since weapons activating is also part of blocking), then you cannot play an enhancement. AS specifically says that hero may play an enhancement; the hero is no longer in battle, so nothing could be played on him, and you don't gain SI as long as your last character isn't removed from battle.

The second case would be if you were removed due to a CBI/CBN card. If your opponent did this, you would not gain SI because there would be no card that could be played to interrupt/negate the source. The character would no longer be in battle, so you could not play an enhancement on him (as above).

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on January 23, 2014, 04:00:09 PM

#3 If PP played Idle Gossip would I still get to play my enhancement in the side battle or would Angel's Sword reactivate and no longer function because you're not being "blocked"?

You were blocked, however. If we are going to rule that AS can play after Uzzah blocks and discards himself, then you are blocked after PP blocks and throws you in a side battle. You can play, but you are in the side battle; you cannot play an enhancement before being put there.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #10 on:** January 23, 2014, 05:44:55 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on January 23, 2014, 05:03:57 PM

First, agree with everyone else that the EC blocking involves completion of ability, so PP's play goes first. Second, agree with everyone else about the weapons bit.

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on January 23, 2014, 04:00:09 PM
2. So after PP plays their enhancement then I'd still get to play my enhancement even if I was winning right? Being able to "play the first enhancement just means "next" enhancement then?

It depends. If the character is removed from battle and you don't gain Special Initiative off of the ability that caused the removal, then no, you cannot play.

So, if the character with AS is not the only character in battle, and is removed due to the enhancement PP plays (or 2K Horses, similar cards, as well, since weapons activating is also part of blocking), then you cannot play an enhancement. AS specifically says that hero may play an enhancement; the hero is no longer in battle, so nothing could be played on him, and you don't gain SI as long as your last character isn't removed from battle.

The second case would be if you were removed due to a CBI/CBN card. If your opponent did this, you would not gain SI because there would be no card that could be played to interrupt/negate the source. The character would no longer be in battle, so you could not play an enhancement on him (as above).

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on January 23, 2014, 04:00:09 PM
#3 If PP played Idle Gossip would I still get to play my enhancement in the side battle or would Angel's Sword reactivate and no longer function because you're not being "blocked"?

You were blocked, however. If we are going to rule that AS can play after Uzzah blocks and discards himself, then you are blocked after PP blocks and throws you in a side battle. You can play, but you are in the side battle; you cannot play an enhancement before being put there.

Yeah, I knew that if the character was removed I wouldn't be able to play but I was more wondering that if PP played something such as False Peace would I get to play off of AS even though it wouldn't be the "first" enhancement but I think what you said implied that the answer is yes, correct me if I'm wrong.

For the "weapons activating as part of blocking" part, how does that work because I though it was ruled that if Michael was wielding Angel's Sword that Mike would get to play before an EC with 2k Horses, even though they still get to draw.

Side battle part makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

Redoubter · « **Reply #11 on:** January 23, 2014, 05:49:12 PM »

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on January 23, 2014, 05:44:55 PM

Yeah, I knew that if the character was removed I wouldn't be able to play but I was more wondering that if PP played something such as False Peace would I get to play off of AS even though it wouldn't be the "first" enhancement but I think what you said implied that the answer is yes, correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe that "may play first" has been ruled that way, yes.

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on January 23, 2014, 05:44:55 PM

For the "weapons activating as part of blocking" part, how does that work because I though it was ruled that if Michael was wielding Angel's Sword that Mike would get to play before an EC with 2k Horses, even though they still get to draw.

Character abilities and weapons they hold must activate before they have been considered being in battle. AS cannot insert itself between the completion of a character's ability and the ability activating on 2k horses, because 2k horses is part of the block. Even if you had a banding chain of Assyrian Archers, all with 2k horses on them, they'd all band, draw, and play before AS would kick in.

Also, that's another point I didn't consider earlier: AS also cannot activate if there is a card/ability played that ends the battle, because nothing can be played once it hits battle resolution.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #12 on:** January 23, 2014, 06:00:22 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on January 23, 2014, 05:49:12 PM

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on January 23, 2014, 05:44:55 PM
Yeah, I knew that if the character was removed I wouldn't be able to play but I was more wondering that if PP played something such as False Peace would I get to play off of AS even though it wouldn't be the "first" enhancement but I think what you said implied that the answer is yes, correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe that "may play first" has been ruled that way, yes.

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on January 23, 2014, 05:44:55 PM
For the "weapons activating as part of blocking" part, how does that work because I though it was ruled that if Michael was wielding Angel's Sword that Mike would get to play before an EC with 2k Horses, even though they still get to draw.

Character abilities and weapons they hold must activate before they have been considered being in battle. AS cannot insert itself between the completion of a character's ability and the ability activating on 2k horses, because 2k horses is part of the block. Even if you had a banding chain of Assyrian Archers, all with 2k horses on them, they'd all band, draw, and play before AS would kick in.

Also, that's another point I didn't consider earlier: AS also cannot activate if there is a card/ability played that ends the battle, because nothing can be played once it hits battle resolution.

Alright. Thanks again!

Professoralstad · « **Reply #13 on:** January 23, 2014, 06:03:54 PM »

Redoubter is correct on the Idle Gossip point.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #14 on:** January 23, 2014, 06:12:01 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on January 23, 2014, 06:03:54 PM

Redoubter is correct on the Idle Gossip point.

And the others...?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #15 on:** January 24, 2014, 09:20:53 AM »

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on January 23, 2014, 06:12:01 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on January 23, 2014, 06:03:54 PM
Redoubter is correct on the Idle Gossip point.
And the others...?

The others were already answered.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #16 on:** January 24, 2014, 10:59:09 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on January 24, 2014, 09:20:53 AM

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on January 23, 2014, 06:12:01 PM
Quote from: Professoralstad on January 23, 2014, 06:03:54 PM
Redoubter is correct on the Idle Gossip point.
And the others...?

The others were already answered.

Right.

So, follow-up question again: Let's say my hero (any hero, doesn't have to be holding Helmet of Brass) is blocked by Saph (ki) who's holding Namaan's Chariots and Horses and he bands to Fallen Warrior who's holding Philistine Chariots and Horses (highly theoretical situation) and off of Saph's Horses one play Idle Gossip to make my hero fight another hero.

#4 Does Fallen Warrior get to play an enhancement even though the opponent is in the side battle or does he get to play as soon as the hero (if he wins) gets back to the main battle?

browarod · « **Reply #17 on:** January 24, 2014, 11:33:35 AM »

Philly C&H has to wait for NC&H to completely finish before it can take effect (because abilities must wait for others to finish) so since Idle Gossip resolves as part of NC&H resolving, I would assume that the ability to play off PC&H would have to wait until after the side battle finishes and then you can interrupt, draw, and/or play from there.

It's a weird situation, to be sure.

Redoubter · « **Reply #18 on:** January 24, 2014, 05:21:41 PM »

In this case, I would argue that it is not defined in the rules explicitly, but we can rule based on what we have. Agree with browarod, posting the rules for reference and the steps to follow:

Quote from: REG 2.0

First, complete all special abilities in the order written on the card except those that add a character to the battle. Note that some special abilities can happen together even though they may be separated by a period. Second, if the card is a character with either a gained ability or a weapon-class enhancement, then activate the gained abilities in the order gained. Finally, activate the special abilities on the carried weapon-class enhancement.
 Complete banding abilities.
 Complete any Choose Blocker or Rescuer abilities.

Technically, a side-battle ability adds a character to a battle, just not that battle, so that part does not apply. Therefore, by the definitions we have, if Idle Gossip is played, then the main battle technically stops, before the band (weapon goes before band, see above), and resumes at that step once the side-battle ends, because it is just like any other instant ability that gets resolved before the chain of abilities moves on.

So, in this case, what we have is:

1. Saph enters battle, uses Namaan's Horses, D2, Play -> Idle Gossip. Main battle stops, NO BAND.
2. Side battle.
3. Main battle resumes, Saph bands to Fallen Warrior, uses Philly Horses, D2, Play.
4. Continue after the play as normal for a battle.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 24, 2014, 10:44:38 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on January 24, 2014, 05:21:41 PM

So, in this case, what we have is:

1. Saph enters battle, uses Namaan's Horses, D2, Play -> Idle Gossip. Main battle stops, NO BAND.
2. Side battle.
3. Main battle resumes, Saph bands to Fallen Warrior, uses Philly Horses, D2, Play.
4. Continue after the play as normal for a battle.

So what happens if during step two one of the heroes plays and enhancement and chooses Saph to be discarded/captured/converted/etc. Does step 3 turn into Saph is no longer in battle and can no longer band? I've have always personally hated side battles as they confuse the daylights out of me!

The Guardian · « **Reply #20 on:** January 25, 2014, 09:24:55 AM »

Saph would still get to band. This would be the same as Gomer blocking from hand with Crown of Thorns active. She is immediately discarded but still gets to use her banding ability.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #21 on:** January 25, 2014, 10:07:57 AM »

I'm a bit late to the party on this one, but regarding Angel's Sword:

http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Angel%E2%80%99s_Sword_(Ki)

Quote

If blocked by a human Evil Character, Hero may play the first enhancement.

Play-As
If blocked by a human Evil Character, holder may play an enhancement on this character.

and:

http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Play_an_Enhancement

Quote

The phrase “play the first enhancement” indicates a play an enhancement ability that takes effect as a response to the initial blocker(s) being presented.

Essentially, "play the first enhancement" is no longer a term in Redemption, read it as "play an enhancement."

*EDIT*

The reasoning behind this came from Michael with Angel's Sword vs Assyrian Archer with Two Thousand Horses.

1. Michael entered battle with AS
2. Assyrian archer entered battle with 2KH, and tried to band.
3. Before the rule change, AS always got to play the "first" enhancement.
4. However, the Order of Operations states that weapons activate before banding.
5. This lead to Angel's Sword inserting itself before Assyrian Archer could even finish his ability, which made no sense.

Redoubter · « **Reply #22 on:** January 25, 2014, 11:22:02 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on January 25, 2014, 10:07:57 AM

The reasoning behind this came from Michael with Angel's Sword vs Assyrian Archer with Two Thousand Horses.

1. Michael entered battle with AS
2. Assyrian archer entered battle with 2KH, and tried to band.
3. Before the rule change, AS always got to play the "first" enhancement.
4. However, the Order of Operations states that weapons activate before banding.
5. This lead to Angel's Sword inserting itself before Assyrian Archer could even finish his ability, which made no sense.

I would contend that there is no issue starting with 4, and that it would still play out as I laid out. Weapons activate before banding as characters enter battle, but AS is already activated as part of Michael entering battle. It is not "waiting for activation," rather, the "once blocked, play" component is ongoing since AS was already activated as part of the OoO, awaiting the condition to be met. That condition cannot complete before Archer and his bands and their weapons all activate and complete, because that is the definition of blocking.

So, there is no issue with ruling that AS comes later based on the OoO, but yes, the clarification on what "play first enhancement" means is good. For reference for everyone else, that quote from the wiki is also in the new REG.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 25, 2014, 11:25:19 AM »

Not to mention Angels sword is the first enhancement played in battle and there can only be one first so I am not sure why there was ever a great dispute. However, I don't think weapons were considered played in battle at the time so I guess that is why other reason was used. That might not have been ironed out at the time but that is logic we can use now... Regardless of weapon's being played in battle "It doesn't make sense" to rule that tkh can play and then Angels Sword is useless. So either way you slice it the card was given an errata to make it work.

What's that? Making Erratas so that cards work as intended? I thought 'we' couldn't do that....

Professoralstad · « **Reply #24 on:** January 27, 2014, 02:27:36 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on January 25, 2014, 11:25:19 AM

What's that? Making Erratas so that cards work as intended? I thought 'we' couldn't do that....

We don't make erratas to make cards work as intended, but we do make erratas to make cards work...An enhancement that must be played to activate that then refers to another enhancement as the 'first' enhancement played, cannot possibly work. So we made the errata for all cards that say 'first' enhancement to instead say 'next' enhancement (or more recently, just "an enhancement").

News:

Author Topic: Hopefully I Can TRUST You All to Answer These Questions PROUDLY (Read 2595 times)

browarod

Lamborghini_diablo

TheHobbit13