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Is the identifier on Holy Grail the same as putting-->may be used twice in the special ability?
Once per round, you may convert an EC in a territory to a hero of your choice MIGHT be a little to OP
Quote from: Legolas on July 25, 2015, 01:11:49 PMOnce per round, you may convert an EC in a territory to a hero of your choice MIGHT be a little to OPIt has not been OP ever since the errata that made the target in a territory, which was many years ago. The original Holy Grail that was allowed to convert in battle was OP.
Quote from: TheHobbit on July 25, 2015, 02:29:15 AMIs the identifier on Holy Grail the same as putting-->may be used twice in the special ability?Yes, the card was reworked to be exactly how we currently RULE it instead of requiring any erratas or leaving anything up to confusion
I guess how is ruled and how it played can be two different things. The May be used twice on things like Assyria's tribute are activation uses and so was thirty pieces of silver for awhile I don't remember it being changed but could have been.
"Used" is different for different cards. Here it is triggering it. Other cards have a mandatory effect (and thus are used when activated).
That's not really accurate at all.
Quote from: TheHobbit on July 25, 2015, 03:06:06 PMThat's not really accurate at all. At all? Really? HG is useless against demons, and any civ that has a fort that protects against it. Also, many people use HG uses to convert their own characters.It is a great card, no doubt, but it is not OP. It definitely used to be OP when you could convert a character in battle.
Quote from: TheHobbit on July 25, 2015, 03:06:06 PMI guess how is ruled and how it played can be two different things. The May be used twice on things like Assyria's tribute are activation uses and so was thirty pieces of silver for awhile I don't remember it being changed but could have been.It specifically says "per game." The ruling has been around for awhile and consistent that "per game" abilities differ, and count across copies of the card (and don't reset)."Used" is different for different cards. Here it is triggering it. Other cards have a mandatory effect (and thus are used when activated).
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 25, 2015, 07:08:15 PMQuote from: TheHobbit on July 25, 2015, 03:06:06 PMThat's not really accurate at all. At all? Really? HG is useless against demons, and any civ that has a fort that protects against it. Also, many people use HG uses to convert their own characters.It is a great card, no doubt, but it is not OP. It definitely used to be OP when you could convert a character in battle.In any argument where one wants to show that Holy Grail is not OP must convince players that there are a variety of decks in which a players should not use Holy Grail, because other wise players ought to use the card a wide variety of decks. Now staples aren't proof of something being overpowered but they are a good indicator, and I have already stated why the ability is too powerful.However, I would like to address your 3 points in 3 parts. First, HG is useless against demons yes but this is a negligible fact because only 1/7 of the brigades have demons that people use. This translates to tournament play where you might rarely see a huge demon defense and even more rarely a mono colored orange defense those are the only decks that render Holy Grail useless, however, if you rarely run into them it doesn't matter. There are defenses that run splashes of demons but they are also paired with humans so you can still get your uses of HG.Second the civilizations that have forts that protect against HG are Assyrians, Eygyptians, Greeks, Judean Kings and Queens, Israelite Kings, and Canaanites. Of theses 6 4 aren't so good even if you are running that culture. Tower leaves you vulnerable to Shipwreck, Throne Room must have a King or Pharaoh to function, and you just don't see Israelite Kings anymore now that people understand that monstrocity samaria decks don't work, and the Assyrian Camp is not so great because of the fact that Assyrians are terrible by themselves. That leaves us with Greek and Judeans. Judeans are good but I have only seen 1 top player that and it didn't top so its not going to gain popularity. Greeks are good but you really are only going to see Areopagus in a turtle deck. So "worst" case scenario you are going to have to deal with 6 fortress counters spanning the entire tournament that have to be drawn to be useful. Im not worried about it and evidently no top player is because of the popularity of HG.Finally if a rational players uses HG to convert there own evil characters than the utility of that conversion is >= to the utility of converting an opponent's defense. This is probably an argument for a broader use of HG not a reason why it is not OP.
Abilities in the future should really say "May be Activating twice" because it isn't obvious that "using" means activation. "Use" sounds like I need to actual do something with ability in order for it to subtract from the amount of uses. Also there's really no reason why may be used twice or maybe used twice per game should function differently in this manner. In any manner it is no clear what "limit twice mean" it can mean limit two such conversions or two activations. Its nice that other cards like Holy Grail and Ark of the Covenant are more clear but Assyria pays tribute, Burial Shroud, and Captured Ark really got thrown under the bus.
Quote from: TheHobbit on July 26, 2015, 05:55:38 PMQuote from: YourMathTeacher on July 25, 2015, 07:08:15 PMQuote from: TheHobbit on July 25, 2015, 03:06:06 PMThat's not really accurate at all. At all? Really? HG is useless against demons, and any civ that has a fort that protects against it. Also, many people use HG uses to convert their own characters.It is a great card, no doubt, but it is not OP. It definitely used to be OP when you could convert a character in battle.In any argument where one wants to show that Holy Grail is not OP must convince players that there are a variety of decks in which a players should not use Holy Grail, because other wise players ought to use the card a wide variety of decks. Now staples aren't proof of something being overpowered but they are a good indicator, and I have already stated why the ability is too powerful.However, I would like to address your 3 points in 3 parts. First, HG is useless against demons yes but this is a negligible fact because only 1/7 of the brigades have demons that people use. This translates to tournament play where you might rarely see a huge demon defense and even more rarely a mono colored orange defense those are the only decks that render Holy Grail useless, however, if you rarely run into them it doesn't matter. There are defenses that run splashes of demons but they are also paired with humans so you can still get your uses of HG.Second the civilizations that have forts that protect against HG are Assyrians, Eygyptians, Greeks, Judean Kings and Queens, Israelite Kings, and Canaanites. Of theses 6 4 aren't so good even if you are running that culture. Tower leaves you vulnerable to Shipwreck, Throne Room must have a King or Pharaoh to function, and you just don't see Israelite Kings anymore now that people understand that monstrocity samaria decks don't work, and the Assyrian Camp is not so great because of the fact that Assyrians are terrible by themselves. That leaves us with Greek and Judeans. Judeans are good but I have only seen 1 top player that and it didn't top so its not going to gain popularity. Greeks are good but you really are only going to see Areopagus in a turtle deck. So "worst" case scenario you are going to have to deal with 6 fortress counters spanning the entire tournament that have to be drawn to be useful. Im not worried about it and evidently no top player is because of the popularity of HG.Finally if a rational players uses HG to convert there own evil characters than the utility of that conversion is >= to the utility of converting an opponent's defense. This is probably an argument for a broader use of HG not a reason why it is not OP.Also every single NT defense has access to Chorazin
In any argument where one wants to show that Holy Grail is not OP must convince players that there are a variety of decks in which a players should not use Holy Grail, ...
Quote from: TheHobbit on July 26, 2015, 05:55:38 PMIn any argument where one wants to show that Holy Grail is not OP must convince players that there are a variety of decks in which a players should not use Holy Grail, ...So your argument is that any card that is used in a variety of decks is OP?
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 26, 2015, 09:15:39 PMQuote from: TheHobbit on July 26, 2015, 05:55:38 PMIn any argument where one wants to show that Holy Grail is not OP must convince players that there are a variety of decks in which a players should not use Holy Grail, ...So your argument is that any card that is used in a variety of decks is OP? SoG is SOOO OP, guys.
Quote from: TheHobbit on July 26, 2015, 05:55:38 PM Abilities in the future should really say "May be Activating twice" because it isn't obvious that "using" means activation. "Use" sounds like I need to actual do something with ability in order for it to subtract from the amount of uses. Also there's really no reason why may be used twice or maybe used twice per game should function differently in this manner. In any manner it is no clear what "limit twice mean" it can mean limit two such conversions or two activations. Its nice that other cards like Holy Grail and Ark of the Covenant are more clear but Assyria pays tribute, Burial Shroud, and Captured Ark really got thrown under the bus.To the first point, activation literally means "activating the artifact" not "using its ability" which is why the wording is how it is (and won't change, because those words mean something else in Redemption).To the point about "used twice" versus "used twice per game," it is a defined ruling that "per game" applies to all copies of the card. The former, however, does not, and therefore it 'resets' upon the card returning to face value (in hand, deck, or discard). The default for a card is that it resets to face value, and "per game" abilities override that by saying that it applies to all copies of the card and all uses by that player. That is why there is a difference.
