Author Topic: Holy Grail (Read 3292 times)

TheHobbit13 · « **on:** July 25, 2015, 02:29:15 AM »

Is the identifier on Holy Grail the same as putting-->may be used twice in the special ability?

Legolas · « **Reply #1 on:** July 25, 2015, 09:23:21 AM »

You can use up to two uses, not more.

Redoubter · « **Reply #2 on:** July 25, 2015, 10:24:40 AM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on July 25, 2015, 02:29:15 AM

Is the identifier on Holy Grail the same as putting-->may be used twice in the special ability?

Yes, the card was reworked to be exactly how we currently RULE it instead of requiring any erratas or leaving anything up to confusion

Eragon5 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 25, 2015, 12:40:55 PM »

Man I can't believe I missed the identifier I thought the Holy Grail had been souped up. Boy do I feel silly now hehe.
Very nice way to make things more simple for rulings.

Legolas · « **Reply #4 on:** July 25, 2015, 01:11:49 PM »

Once per round, you may convert an EC in a territory to a hero of your choice without a limit MIGHT be a little to OP

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #5 on:** July 25, 2015, 01:40:33 PM »

Quote from: Legolas on July 25, 2015, 01:11:49 PM

Once per round, you may convert an EC in a territory to a hero of your choice MIGHT be a little to OP

It has not been OP ever since the errata that made the target in a territory, which was many years ago. The original Holy Grail that was allowed to convert in battle was OP.

Redoubter · « **Reply #6 on:** July 25, 2015, 01:50:46 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 25, 2015, 01:40:33 PM

Quote from: Legolas on July 25, 2015, 01:11:49 PM
Once per round, you may convert an EC in a territory to a hero of your choice MIGHT be a little to OP

It has not been OP ever since the errata that made the target in a territory, which was many years ago. The original Holy Grail that was allowed to convert in battle was OP.

I'd say that a limitless territory-destroyer, particularly with TGT out there, would still be OP though

But yes, that errata (which is printed at face value on the new card) was a very important one.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 25, 2015, 03:06:06 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 25, 2015, 01:40:33 PM

Quote from: Legolas on July 25, 2015, 01:11:49 PM
Once per round, you may convert an EC in a territory to a hero of your choice MIGHT be a little to OP

It has not been OP ever since the errata that made the target in a territory, which was many years ago. The original Holy Grail that was allowed to convert in battle was OP.

That's not really accurate at all. two conversations of evil characters, which generally are hard to protect without some set up, will directly affect lost soul count. That's why its been in every nationals winning deck for awhile.

Quote from: Redoubter on July 25, 2015, 10:24:40 AM

Quote from: TheHobbit on July 25, 2015, 02:29:15 AM
Is the identifier on Holy Grail the same as putting-->may be used twice in the special ability?

Yes, the card was reworked to be exactly how we currently RULE it instead of requiring any erratas or leaving anything up to confusion

I guess how is ruled and how it played can be two different things. The May be used twice on things like Assyria's tribute are activation uses and so was thirty pieces of silver for awhile I don't remember it being changed but could have been. Ark was that way too initially I think and there was some interest to change it conveyed by Bryon but Im not sure things were finalized. I guess my real question is are these activation uses for Holy grail or conversation uses because these are two different concept.

Redoubter · « **Reply #8 on:** July 25, 2015, 03:10:50 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on July 25, 2015, 03:06:06 PM

I guess how is ruled and how it played can be two different things. The May be used twice on things like Assyria's tribute are activation uses and so was thirty pieces of silver for awhile I don't remember it being changed but could have been.

It specifically says "per game." The ruling has been around for awhile and consistent that "per game" abilities differ, and count across copies of the card (and don't reset).

"Used" is different for different cards. Here it is triggering it. Other cards have a mandatory effect (and thus are used when activated).

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #9 on:** July 25, 2015, 03:24:07 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on July 25, 2015, 03:10:50 PM

"Used" is different for different cards. Here it is triggering it. Other cards have a mandatory effect (and thus are used when activated).

I personally think all Artifacts with limited use should be rounds, (note: The original Holy Grail and Ark of the Covenant were worded differently and were specifically restricted by conversions and discards), and a card like Holy Grail (at least with the original wording) should do their conversion on activation (the new one however says "Once per Round" making it obviously a manual trigger), and I especially want 30 Pieces of Silver to be 2 Rounds and I would prefer Captured Ark to be the same way.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #10 on:** July 25, 2015, 07:08:15 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on July 25, 2015, 03:06:06 PM

That's not really accurate at all.

At all? Really?

HG is useless against demons, and any civ that has a fort that protects against it. Also, many people use HG uses to convert their own characters.

It is a great card, no doubt, but it is not OP. It definitely used to be OP when you could convert a character in battle.

Sadness · « **Reply #11 on:** July 26, 2015, 05:19:04 PM »

Can the Warriors version still be used?

Legolas · « **Reply #12 on:** July 26, 2015, 05:28:04 PM »

Yeah it can, but more people will just want the newer better phrased cool bordered ultra rare one, but the warrior one can still be used

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 26, 2015, 05:55:38 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 25, 2015, 07:08:15 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit on July 25, 2015, 03:06:06 PM
That's not really accurate at all.

At all? Really?

HG is useless against demons, and any civ that has a fort that protects against it. Also, many people use HG uses to convert their own characters.

It is a great card, no doubt, but it is not OP. It definitely used to be OP when you could convert a character in battle.

In any argument where one wants to show that Holy Grail is not OP must convince players that there are a variety of decks in which a players should not use Holy Grail, because other wise players ought to use the card a wide variety of decks. Now staples aren't proof of something being overpowered but they are a good indicator, and I have already stated why the ability is too powerful.

However, I would like to address your 3 points in 3 parts.
First, HG is useless against demons yes but this is a negligible fact because only 1/7 of the brigades have demons that people use. This translates to tournament play where you might rarely see a huge demon defense and even more rarely a mono colored orange defense those are the only decks that render Holy Grail useless, however, if you rarely run into them it doesn't matter. There are defenses that run splashes of demons but they are also paired with humans so you can still get your uses of HG.
Second the civilizations that have forts that protect against HG are Assyrians, Eygyptians, Greeks, Judean Kings and Queens, Israelite Kings, and Canaanites. Of theses 6 4 aren't so good even if you are running that culture. Tower leaves you vulnerable to Shipwreck, Throne Room must have a King or Pharaoh to function, and you just don't see Israelite Kings anymore now that people understand that monstrocity samaria decks don't work, and the Assyrian Camp is not so great because of the fact that Assyrians are terrible by themselves. That leaves us with Greek and Judeans. Judeans are good but I have only seen 1 top player that and it didn't top so its not going to gain popularity. Greeks are good but you really are only going to see Areopagus in a turtle deck. So "worst" case scenario you are going to have to deal with 6 fortress counters spanning the entire tournament that have to be drawn to be useful. Im not worried about it and evidently no top player is because of the popularity of HG.
Finally if a rational players uses HG to convert there own evil characters than the utility of that conversion is >= to the utility of converting an opponent's defense. This is probably an argument for a broader use of HG not a reason why it is not OP.

Quote from: Redoubter on July 25, 2015, 03:10:50 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit on July 25, 2015, 03:06:06 PM
I guess how is ruled and how it played can be two different things. The May be used twice on things like Assyria's tribute are activation uses and so was thirty pieces of silver for awhile I don't remember it being changed but could have been.

It specifically says "per game." The ruling has been around for awhile and consistent that "per game" abilities differ, and count across copies of the card (and don't reset).

"Used" is different for different cards. Here it is triggering it. Other cards have a mandatory effect (and thus are used when activated).

Ya know I knew there was a reason why they function different but couldn't remember it, good catch. I still think there's an inconsistency and unnecessary confusion here. Abilities in the future should really say "May be Activating twice" because it isn't obvious that "using" means activation. "Use" sounds like I need to actual do something with ability in order for it to subtract from the amount of uses. Also there's really no reason why may be used twice or maybe used twice per game should function differently in this manner. In any manner it is no clear what "limit twice mean" it can mean limit two such conversions or two activations. Its nice that other cards like Holy Grail and Ark of the Covenant are more clear but Assyria pays tribute, Burial Shroud, and Captured Ark really got thrown under the bus.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #14 on:** July 26, 2015, 06:09:55 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on July 26, 2015, 05:55:38 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 25, 2015, 07:08:15 PM
Quote from: TheHobbit on July 25, 2015, 03:06:06 PM
That's not really accurate at all.

At all? Really?

HG is useless against demons, and any civ that has a fort that protects against it. Also, many people use HG uses to convert their own characters.

It is a great card, no doubt, but it is not OP. It definitely used to be OP when you could convert a character in battle.
In any argument where one wants to show that Holy Grail is not OP must convince players that there are a variety of decks in which a players should not use Holy Grail, because other wise players ought to use the card a wide variety of decks. Now staples aren't proof of something being overpowered but they are a good indicator, and I have already stated why the ability is too powerful.

However, I would like to address your 3 points in 3 parts.
First, HG is useless against demons yes but this is a negligible fact because only 1/7 of the brigades have demons that people use. This translates to tournament play where you might rarely see a huge demon defense and even more rarely a mono colored orange defense those are the only decks that render Holy Grail useless, however, if you rarely run into them it doesn't matter. There are defenses that run splashes of demons but they are also paired with humans so you can still get your uses of HG.
Second the civilizations that have forts that protect against HG are Assyrians, Eygyptians, Greeks, Judean Kings and Queens, Israelite Kings, and Canaanites. Of theses 6 4 aren't so good even if you are running that culture. Tower leaves you vulnerable to Shipwreck, Throne Room must have a King or Pharaoh to function, and you just don't see Israelite Kings anymore now that people understand that monstrocity samaria decks don't work, and the Assyrian Camp is not so great because of the fact that Assyrians are terrible by themselves. That leaves us with Greek and Judeans. Judeans are good but I have only seen 1 top player that and it didn't top so its not going to gain popularity. Greeks are good but you really are only going to see Areopagus in a turtle deck. So "worst" case scenario you are going to have to deal with 6 fortress counters spanning the entire tournament that have to be drawn to be useful. Im not worried about it and evidently no top player is because of the popularity of HG.
Finally if a rational players uses HG to convert there own evil characters than the utility of that conversion is >= to the utility of converting an opponent's defense. This is probably an argument for a broader use of HG not a reason why it is not OP.

Also every single NT defense has access to Chorazin (I think, the Gold site in Disciples) that protects all NT evil characters from Conversion (and a minor curse activating ability, as well as the ability to put a soul in it or use it to access gold sites). So that adds, 1 Brigade, 5 Old Testament defenses and every single NT defense are or can with 1 card become immune to Holy Grail. And Pharaoh's Throne Room only needs the Pharaoh to negate Ignores on opponent's heroes, not to protect Egyptians.

Redoubter · « **Reply #15 on:** July 26, 2015, 06:19:23 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on July 26, 2015, 05:55:38 PM

Abilities in the future should really say "May be Activating twice" because it isn't obvious that "using" means activation. "Use" sounds like I need to actual do something with ability in order for it to subtract from the amount of uses. Also there's really no reason why may be used twice or maybe used twice per game should function differently in this manner. In any manner it is no clear what "limit twice mean" it can mean limit two such conversions or two activations. Its nice that other cards like Holy Grail and Ark of the Covenant are more clear but Assyria pays tribute, Burial Shroud, and Captured Ark really got thrown under the bus.

To the first point, activation literally means "activating the artifact" not "using its ability" which is why the wording is how it is (and won't change, because those words mean something else in Redemption).

To the point about "used twice" versus "used twice per game," it is a defined ruling that "per game" applies to all copies of the card. The former, however, does not, and therefore it 'resets' upon the card returning to face value (in hand, deck, or discard). The default for a card is that it resets to face value, and "per game" abilities override that by saying that it applies to all copies of the card and all uses by that player. That is why there is a difference.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #16 on:** July 26, 2015, 08:32:22 PM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on July 26, 2015, 06:09:55 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit on July 26, 2015, 05:55:38 PM
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 25, 2015, 07:08:15 PM
Quote from: TheHobbit on July 25, 2015, 03:06:06 PM
That's not really accurate at all.

At all? Really?

HG is useless against demons, and any civ that has a fort that protects against it. Also, many people use HG uses to convert their own characters.

It is a great card, no doubt, but it is not OP. It definitely used to be OP when you could convert a character in battle.
In any argument where one wants to show that Holy Grail is not OP must convince players that there are a variety of decks in which a players should not use Holy Grail, because other wise players ought to use the card a wide variety of decks. Now staples aren't proof of something being overpowered but they are a good indicator, and I have already stated why the ability is too powerful.

However, I would like to address your 3 points in 3 parts.
First, HG is useless against demons yes but this is a negligible fact because only 1/7 of the brigades have demons that people use. This translates to tournament play where you might rarely see a huge demon defense and even more rarely a mono colored orange defense those are the only decks that render Holy Grail useless, however, if you rarely run into them it doesn't matter. There are defenses that run splashes of demons but they are also paired with humans so you can still get your uses of HG.
Second the civilizations that have forts that protect against HG are Assyrians, Eygyptians, Greeks, Judean Kings and Queens, Israelite Kings, and Canaanites. Of theses 6 4 aren't so good even if you are running that culture. Tower leaves you vulnerable to Shipwreck, Throne Room must have a King or Pharaoh to function, and you just don't see Israelite Kings anymore now that people understand that monstrocity samaria decks don't work, and the Assyrian Camp is not so great because of the fact that Assyrians are terrible by themselves. That leaves us with Greek and Judeans. Judeans are good but I have only seen 1 top player that and it didn't top so its not going to gain popularity. Greeks are good but you really are only going to see Areopagus in a turtle deck. So "worst" case scenario you are going to have to deal with 6 fortress counters spanning the entire tournament that have to be drawn to be useful. Im not worried about it and evidently no top player is because of the popularity of HG.
Finally if a rational players uses HG to convert there own evil characters than the utility of that conversion is >= to the utility of converting an opponent's defense. This is probably an argument for a broader use of HG not a reason why it is not OP.

Also every single NT defense has access to Chorazin

Also, The god of this World stops conversion from HG For any defense. So there are options. And while I agree that HG is powerful (possibly OP), there was no way we were going to reprint it with a toned-down ability, since we would have to either errata the original (again), ban it, or have a power-imbalance situation between those who can get access to an old one and those who can't.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #17 on:** July 26, 2015, 09:15:39 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on July 26, 2015, 05:55:38 PM

In any argument where one wants to show that Holy Grail is not OP must convince players that there are a variety of decks in which a players should not use Holy Grail, ...

So your argument is that any card that is used in a variety of decks is OP?

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #18 on:** July 26, 2015, 10:08:29 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 26, 2015, 09:15:39 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit on July 26, 2015, 05:55:38 PM
In any argument where one wants to show that Holy Grail is not OP must convince players that there are a variety of decks in which a players should not use Holy Grail, ...

So your argument is that any card that is used in a variety of decks is OP?

SoG is SOOO OP, guys.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #19 on:** July 26, 2015, 10:18:48 PM »

Quote from: Minion of Jesus on July 26, 2015, 10:08:29 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 26, 2015, 09:15:39 PM
Quote from: TheHobbit on July 26, 2015, 05:55:38 PM
In any argument where one wants to show that Holy Grail is not OP must convince players that there are a variety of decks in which a players should not use Holy Grail, ...

So your argument is that any card that is used in a variety of decks is OP?

SoG is SOOO OP, guys.

A lot of people would say it is, but the game has been built around it's existence, can fit into every deck and is incredibly common that it doesn't have the same impact as other overpowered cards would have.

The Guardian · « **Reply #20 on:** July 26, 2015, 10:50:09 PM »

Aeropagus doesn't protect against Holy Grail.

There's no doubt it's one of the strongest artifacts in the game, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Chorazin is an excellent counter card as is The god of this World.

slugfencer · « **Reply #21 on:** July 28, 2015, 08:10:57 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on July 26, 2015, 06:19:23 PM

Quote from: TheHobbit on July 26, 2015, 05:55:38 PM
Abilities in the future should really say "May be Activating twice" because it isn't obvious that "using" means activation. "Use" sounds like I need to actual do something with ability in order for it to subtract from the amount of uses. Also there's really no reason why may be used twice or maybe used twice per game should function differently in this manner. In any manner it is no clear what "limit twice mean" it can mean limit two such conversions or two activations. Its nice that other cards like Holy Grail and Ark of the Covenant are more clear but Assyria pays tribute, Burial Shroud, and Captured Ark really got thrown under the bus.

To the first point, activation literally means "activating the artifact" not "using its ability" which is why the wording is how it is (and won't change, because those words mean something else in Redemption).

To the point about "used twice" versus "used twice per game," it is a defined ruling that "per game" applies to all copies of the card. The former, however, does not, and therefore it 'resets' upon the card returning to face value (in hand, deck, or discard). The default for a card is that it resets to face value, and "per game" abilities override that by saying that it applies to all copies of the card and all uses by that player. That is why there is a difference.

So does this mean that 3 copies of burial shroud or cap ark are only able to be used once per game and the extra copies are useless? Help?

browarod · « **Reply #22 on:** July 28, 2015, 09:13:12 AM »

No. Per Redoubter's statement that you quoted only "per game" abilities track across all copies of a card. Shroud and CA both just say "may be used twice" so that means each copy of the card can use its ability twice (or more if reset).

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Author Topic: Holy Grail (Read 3292 times)

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13

slugfencer

browarod