Author Topic: Holding= Sa? Or??? (Read 12497 times)

The Schaef · « **Reply #75 on:** February 03, 2010, 02:37:22 PM »

I hate to sound like the malcontent at this point, but the REG is also an example of an instance similar to the clandestine "Fort hold" rule change, where after initial comments, nothing was discussed for some time, even after Thesaurus was sent to print, and then the REG in its current form was thrust directly into the public eye.

I/we are supposed to be "in the know" and field questions regarding the REG but we're seeing it at the same time as everyone else, and notably, several corrections (not suggestions but factual errors) from early discussions still never found their way into the document.

Separation of powers has its place, and there are areas where we overlap and where we do not. But information needs to be free-flowing so that there are a dozen people who understand where we are and can field questions, and not just the one or two who put their hands on it.

Bryon · « **Reply #76 on:** February 03, 2010, 02:59:10 PM »

Quote

I activate HoH on Tabernacle in my prep phase. I rescue with Eleazar and activate BotC, and then activate two covenants. HoH remains active. My opponent then negates Tabernacle.

Based on what's been said in this thread I am guessing that BotC AND the two covenants are put face down on the art pile, with HoH and the SA of the two covenants still active?

Negating Tabernacle does nothing. As I said in my post above, Tabernacle's Special Ability was not used to activate the artifact there: the HERO did that. If you don't negate the hero's special ability, then the Artifact stays.

And that same result happens regardless of whether "Holds" on Tabernacle is treated as a special ability (similar to the Site Doubler lost soul), or a game rule (which can't be negated).

STAMP · « **Reply #77 on:** February 03, 2010, 04:27:15 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 03, 2010, 02:59:10 PM

Quote
I activate HoH on Tabernacle in my prep phase. I rescue with Eleazar and activate BotC, and then activate two covenants. HoH remains active. My opponent then negates Tabernacle.

Based on what's been said in this thread I am guessing that BotC AND the two covenants are put face down on the art pile, with HoH and the SA of the two covenants still active?
Negating Tabernacle does nothing. As I said in my post above, Tabernacle's Special Ability was not used to activate the artifact there: the HERO did that. If you don't negate the hero's special ability, then the Artifact stays.

And that same result happens regardless of whether "Holds" on Tabernacle is treated as a special ability (similar to the Site Doubler lost soul), or a game rule (which can't be negated).

Ok, I get it now. "Holds" is an instant ability that targets the fortress basically defining the type of container that fortress is. I would rather this be a game rule. Why? Because although it would be very difficult to negate the "hold" ability, if you did then that fortress could never hold anything while it remains in play. It would have to leave play and then be reactivated later.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #78 on:** February 03, 2010, 04:35:21 PM »

I agree with schaef that if Hold is to be an ability... that it seems like it would be an ongoing ability.

If I'm holding an object with my hands, it's not a one time deal. I have to continue to hold it. Negating my hold would be like me dropping the object I had in my hands, because I am no longer holding it.

Bryon · « **Reply #79 on:** February 03, 2010, 04:45:34 PM »

"Holds/may be held" is a manually-triggered ability. As evidenced by the ruling on the Site Doubler Lost Soul, once the card is put in, that action cannot be negated on a later phase.

It is a manually triggered ability that is only allowed in the preparation phase.

The Schaef · « **Reply #80 on:** February 03, 2010, 04:49:26 PM »

That definition will kill you on Storehouse, which works only in the Discard Phase.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #81 on:** February 03, 2010, 04:52:37 PM »

I see Place as the instant version of Hold.

If you place something on a counter, it will (in most cases) remain on the counter without you doing anything to it. However, an object held in the air will only remain in the air so long as you continue to hold it.

Both put cards in other locations, but one is ongoing, the other is instant.

*EDIT*

Regarding lost souls, I think the site doubler and BBH need a play as... At the moment, we have both Place AND held being used.

Quote

When you place this card in a Site, you may put an Evil Character face down from hand, The Darkness or Tartaros on that Site. During a rescue attempt at that Site, you may add that Character to the battle.

Quote

If you put this lost soul in a site, each of your opponent's must discard a card from hand.

Quote

This Site may hold one Lost Soul for each Babylonian Site in Play.

Quote

This Lost Soul may be held captive in a Site currently occupied by another Lost Soul

Quote

For each Lost Soul in your territory that is not in a Site, search draw pile for an Eqyptian Site an dput in play. Put a Lost Soul in each of those Sites. Cannot be interrupted.

Then theres this oddball:

Quote

Search your draw pile for one single color Lost Soul Site. Place Site in play. A Lost Soul may be added to the Site immediately.

I say we clean this up and just us the already existing term Place, which would continue to work EXACTLY as we have played it in the past. Place abilities CBN after the phase they were used in.

*edit 2*

I realized there are quite a few more SA's regarding sites and souls, but they could all very easily be clarified to say place/placed.

Bryon · « **Reply #82 on:** February 03, 2010, 05:30:18 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on February 03, 2010, 04:49:26 PM

That definition will kill you on Storehouse, which works only in the Discard Phase.

Storehouse does not have a "holds" rule on the identifier line. It has a special ability that is used when it says it is used.

If we are going to make "Holds" part of the game rules for fortresses, rather than a special ability, then "Holds" needs to have a time that it is used. To my knowledge, every card with the "Holds" keyword on the identifier line only allows that action to take place in the prep phase. Other forts can allow placement at different times, but those are ONLY by special ability.

"Holds/may be held" cannot be treated exactly as JUST an instant place ability, since it would have to be used immediately when it hits the table. The Site Doubler would have to be placed immediately when drawn or not at all. Further, it could be used immediately when drawn in the middle of a battle, for instance.

"Holds/may be held" MUST remain a manually-triggered action that is only available during the prep phase.

I like Schaef's idea that, when "Holds" appears on the identifier line of a fortress, the placement of the card into the fort is an action allowed by the game rule for fortresses, and not a special ability. But it is still a manually-triggered action, and not an instant ability that is now-or-never at the moment it is played.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #83 on:** February 03, 2010, 05:37:31 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 03, 2010, 05:30:18 PM

"Holds/may be held" cannot be treated exactly as JUST an instant place ability, since it would have to be used immediately when it hits the table. The Site Doubler would have to be placed immediately when drawn or not at all. Further, it could be used immediately when drawn in the middle of a battle, for instance.

Except, Lost Souls have a special game rule attached to them that lets you put them in sites during your prep phase without using ANY special abilities... So I don't think that is entirely accurate. Plus, aren't all LS abilities aside from those that specify "When drawn" constantly active?

This means that with the site doubler, at any time, you may use the game rule to "place" it on a site, but the SA on the souls allows you to place it on a site with another soul already in it.

Some examples of the cards above, reworded with place:

You may place one Lost Soul in this site for each babylon site in play.

This Soul may be placed into a site that currently has a soul placed in it.

Search your draw pile for one single color Lost Soul Site. Place Site in play. A Lost Soul may be placed in the Site immediately.

Show those to anyone and they'll immediately understand it. At the moment though, having BOTH abilities for the same action is just going to cause problems. I see no reason why Place should not be used for souls.

STAMP · « **Reply #84 on:** February 03, 2010, 05:57:28 PM »

Okay, you guys can take it from here. I'm bowing out of this one.

Bryon · « **Reply #85 on:** February 03, 2010, 06:33:24 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 03, 2010, 05:37:31 PM

You may place one Lost Soul in this site for each babylon site in play.

At what time do I get to use this ability? How often can I use it? That isn't very clear.

This site's Lost Soul capacity equals the number of Babylonian sites in play.

Is that better?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #86 on:** February 03, 2010, 06:58:13 PM »

hmm, I guess BBH would be the only LS/Site card where place isnt as understandable. Everything else could easily be switched.

To answer the questions you asked... arent Site abilities ongoing unless specified as well?

Reading through the list, there are a few with no conditions that work constantly, such as the AW sites "Evil cards on this site are protected from DragonRaid." and BBH. Every other card gives a specific condition for the SA to activate.

So, I guess you can say every SA on a site is ongoing unless it has a condition that must be met?

"Up to X souls may be placed on this site at any time. X = number of babylon sites in play." <-- maybe?

Only reason I'm suggesting this stuff is to try and condense the action of putting souls in sites into ONE ability, not three.

Gabe · « **Reply #87 on:** April 10, 2010, 06:18:05 PM »

I asked privately about the final ruling on how we should handle a "hold" ability found in the identifier line of a card. I received the following answer as well as the suggestion that I pass along this announcement to the Redemption community:

Quote

Anything in the identifier line can't be negated. Rob ruled on this in the playtester side of the message board. Feel free to announce that on the relevant threads.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #88 on:** April 10, 2010, 06:34:34 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on April 10, 2010, 06:18:05 PM

I asked privately about the final ruling on how we should handle a "hold" ability found in the identifier line of a card. I received the following answer as well as the suggestion that I pass along this announcement to the Redemption community:

Quote
Anything in the identifier line can't be negated. Rob ruled on this in the playtester side of the message board. Feel free to announce that on the relevant threads.

HALLELUJAH!

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #89 on:** April 10, 2010, 06:35:29 PM »

Quote

Anything in the identifier line can't be negated. Rob ruled on this in the playtester side of the message board. Feel free to announce that on the relevant threads.

Is it also active outside battle? That's important...

Ironica · « **Reply #90 on:** April 10, 2010, 06:40:01 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on April 10, 2010, 06:18:05 PM

I asked privately about the final ruling on how we should handle a "hold" ability found in the identifier line of a card. I received the following answer as well as the suggestion that I pass along this announcement to the Redemption community:

Quote
Anything in the identifier line can't be negated. Rob ruled on this in the playtester side of the message board. Feel free to announce that on the relevant threads.

And the peasants rejoice

.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #91 on:** April 10, 2010, 07:41:27 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on April 10, 2010, 06:35:29 PM

Quote
Anything in the identifier line can't be negated. Rob ruled on this in the playtester side of the message board. Feel free to announce that on the relevant threads.
Is it also active outside battle? That's important...

Is it important? I think that's always been the case...Are there any characters with abilifiers? Presently, I think not, as I think only Fortresses and one Artifact (Magic Charms) have them. If that ceases to be the case, I'm sure it will be settled then.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #92 on:** April 10, 2010, 07:45:55 PM »

WOOO! One unresolved debate down... now we just need to resolve the Playced debate.

Gabe · « **Reply #93 on:** April 10, 2010, 08:36:02 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on April 10, 2010, 07:45:55 PM

WOOO! One unresolved debate down... now we just need to resolve the Playced debate.

I must have missed that debate. Where can I find it?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #94 on:** April 10, 2010, 08:46:01 PM »

Heres the basics of it:

1) when do placed enhancements activate after being placed by someone like Elishana.
2) are placed enhancements considered to be played?

debate #1 http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=18929.0
debate #2 http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=19761.0

News:

Author Topic: Holding= Sa? Or??? (Read 12497 times)

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Warrior_Monk

Ironica

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo