Author Topic: Holding= Sa? Or??? (Read 12500 times)

STAMP · « **Reply #25 on:** February 01, 2010, 01:18:06 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on January 31, 2010, 11:44:53 AM

So, if I negate TGT, can I put any cards I want on TGT, since it'd no longer be "empty"?

If you negate TGT and it is no longer "Empty!", I am more curious as to what card materializes on TGT.

TimMierz · « **Reply #26 on:** February 01, 2010, 01:41:18 PM »

Perhaps Angel at the Tomb?

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #27 on:** February 02, 2010, 11:48:14 AM »

I would like to point out that the current (and official) REG disagrees.

Quote from: REG

Special Abilities
These are the instructions printed on the picture of some cards. ( See Anatomy of a Card and Resolving Special Ability Combinations in the rulebook).

So, if I negate TGT, can I put any cards I want on TGT, since it'd no longer be "empty"?

If you negate TGT and it is no longer "Empty!", I am more curious as to what card materializes on TGT.

Theology debate ahoy!

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #28 on:** February 02, 2010, 05:52:54 PM »

this is so lame. holds is put as an identifier, it should stay that way. it's like errataing a ton of cards.

Bryon · « **Reply #29 on:** February 02, 2010, 06:32:37 PM »

Technically, an "identifier" just says what something IS, not what action is performed by it. On a fortress, what "Holds X" does is a special ability.

What action does "prophet" or "king" do? Nothing on its own. Another card can say do something to or for a prophet, but prophet is not an action.

"Holds x" on a fortress grants this special ability: "You may place X on this card." If it is not a special ability, then it is not an action that you can perform.

If you want to be able to use the "Holds X" on a fortress to put cards in that fortress, then it needs to be a special ability.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #30 on:** February 02, 2010, 06:39:34 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 02, 2010, 06:32:37 PM

Technically, an "identifier" just says what something IS, not what action is performed by it. On a fortress, what "Holds X" does is a special ability.

What action does "prophet" or "king" do? Nothing on its own. Another card can say do something to or for a prophet, but prophet is not an action.

"Holds x" on a fortress grants this special ability: "You may place X on this card." If it is not a special ability, then it is not an action that you can perform.

If you want to be able to use the "Holds X" on a fortress to put cards in that fortress, then it needs to be a special ability.

but the whole awesomeness of identifiers is the fact that part can be negated and part can't. but I guess it's not really an identifier then. still...

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #31 on:** February 02, 2010, 07:08:33 PM »

Then why were they put in the identifiers box in the first place? IMO, and the REG's, special abilities are the text printed on the card's picture. Identifiers are the small text underneath or clarifying text in the SA area. The identifier box does not hold SAs.

Quote

If it is not a special ability, then it is not an action that you can perform.

Self's ability is not a SA, yet we perform it.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #32 on:** February 02, 2010, 08:49:02 PM »

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on February 02, 2010, 07:08:33 PM

Then why were they put in the identifiers box in the first place? IMO, and the REG's, special abilities are the text printed on the card's picture. Identifiers are the small text underneath or clarifying text in the SA area. The identifier box does not hold SAs.

Quote
If it is not a special ability, then it is not an action that you can perform.
Self's ability is not a SA, yet we perform it.

it won't be the first time Cactus messed up...

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #33 on:** February 02, 2010, 09:13:50 PM »

Nor will it be the last but they do fix their mistakes

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #34 on:** February 02, 2010, 09:16:19 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on February 02, 2010, 09:13:50 PM

Nor will it be the last but they do fix their mistakes

some mistakes would be fine if they didn't fix it.

Bryon · « **Reply #35 on:** February 02, 2010, 10:19:38 PM »

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on February 02, 2010, 07:08:33 PM

Then why were they put in the identifiers box in the first place? IMO, and the REG's, special abilities are the text printed on the card's picture. Identifiers are the small text underneath or clarifying text in the SA area. The identifier box does not hold SAs.

Quote
If it is not a special ability, then it is not an action that you can perform.
Self's ability is not a SA, yet we perform it.

What is Self? The identifier tells you what it is. In order to tell what it is (the definition of an identifier), you have to select a hero to "copy." Otherwise, Self isn't anything. It is all identifier.

As I already stated above, "Holds" was put into the identifier line to save space. In retrospect, perhaps we should have just covered the entire picture with words to prevent this confusion.

The Schaef · « **Reply #36 on:** February 02, 2010, 10:32:33 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on January 31, 2010, 07:30:22 PM

That was never my understanding of the use for the identifier line. Ever.

STAMP · « **Reply #37 on:** February 02, 2010, 10:39:32 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on February 02, 2010, 10:19:38 PM

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on February 02, 2010, 07:08:33 PM
Then why were they put in the identifiers box in the first place? IMO, and the REG's, special abilities are the text printed on the card's picture. Identifiers are the small text underneath or clarifying text in the SA area. The identifier box does not hold SAs.

Quote
If it is not a special ability, then it is not an action that you can perform.
Self's ability is not a SA, yet we perform it.
What is Self? The identifier tells you what it is. In order to tell what it is (the definition of an identifier), you have to select a hero to "copy." Otherwise, Self isn't anything. It is all identifier.

As I already stated above, "Holds" was put into the identifier line to save space. In retrospect, perhaps we should have just covered the entire picture with words to prevent this confusion.

Let me make sure I understand this. Self only has an identifier but the identifier contains a "copy" ability. The identifier is just that and cannot be negated. So the "copy" ability, although being an actual ability, cannot be negated because it's within the identifier?

I'm REALLY glad I'm retired!

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #38 on:** February 02, 2010, 10:55:26 PM »

So... does Innumerable have no SA either... meaning its "ability" is really just an identifier as well? It Copies too...

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #39 on:** February 02, 2010, 11:02:45 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on February 02, 2010, 10:39:32 PM

I'm REALLY glad I'm retired!

I never thought I'd say this, but I don't blame you with things like these. my whole redemption world just flipped around.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #40 on:** February 02, 2010, 11:48:44 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 02, 2010, 11:02:45 PM

Quote from: STAMP on February 02, 2010, 10:39:32 PM
I'm REALLY glad I'm retired!
I never thought I'd say this, but I don't blame you with things like these. my whole redemption world just flipped around.

A much needed flip honestly.

Bryon · « **Reply #41 on:** February 03, 2010, 12:38:03 AM »

Innumerable does not have */*. Therefore, it has a copy special ability.

Self has */*. If */* is not defined, then the card is nothingness. You can't have a character that is nothingness. Therefore it has an identifier, just like Silly Women and Angel with a Secret Name.

Just look for the stars. If words on a card are telling you what the stars are, then it is an identifier.

Get it?

SirNobody · « **Reply #42 on:** February 03, 2010, 03:48:22 AM »

Hey,

The playtesting team and rules management teem are volunteers. As a result we end up flying by the seat of our pants sometimes. When we make things up as we go, occasionally we make mistakes. We made a mistake when we made Z-temple's ability to hold an artifact an identifier. We made a mistake when we said Self had a copy ability. When we realize we've made mistakes we correct them. Sometimes it takes a little time to get corrections through.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #43 on:** February 03, 2010, 04:12:39 AM »

I'll cry quarts if this means ruling out "cannot be Ignored" in an identifier.

The Schaef · « **Reply #44 on:** February 03, 2010, 08:33:48 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on February 03, 2010, 03:48:22 AM

We made a mistake when we made Z-temple's ability to hold an artifact an identifier.

Except "we" who were actually developing the cards at the time never considered the hold to be an ability nor a print error nor an isolated incident, since every Fortress that holds stuff from Priests forward has been treated the same.

This not a "mistake". This is a "change".

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #45 on:** February 03, 2010, 08:48:24 AM »

My

:

Putting an "ability" in the identifier line is IMO a perfectly legitimate way to make that "ability" CBN and active outside of battle while the rest of the card is not.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #46 on:** February 03, 2010, 08:54:32 AM »

This has actually been around since priests as far as I know:

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #47 on:** February 03, 2010, 09:10:22 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on February 03, 2010, 08:48:24 AM

My :

Putting an "ability" in the identifier line is IMO a perfectly legitimate way to make that "ability" CBN and active outside of battle while the rest of the card is not.

this is always how I've viewed it.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #48 on:** February 03, 2010, 09:20:49 AM »

I also have a question, which most likely has been asked, but what happens when a "hold" "ability" is negated? Is the card returned to where it was before? Is it returned to your hand? Is it discarded?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #49 on:** February 03, 2010, 09:43:41 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on February 03, 2010, 09:20:49 AM

I also have a question, which most likely has been asked, but what happens when a "hold" "ability" is negated? Is the card returned to where it was before? Is it returned to your hand? Is it discarded?

It should be returned to where it was.

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 03, 2010, 04:12:39 AM

I'll cry quarts if this means ruling out "cannot be Ignored" in an identifier.

This seems to be inevitable. There is no way that it could be consistent with this new ruling if "cannot be ignored" was made an identifier on the identifier line, especially when the phrase appears on other cards as special abilities. Perhaps we could make "unigorable" an identifier. But it doesn't seem likely.

Let me know how many pails you fill.

News:

Author Topic: Holding= Sa? Or??? (Read 12500 times)

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

Warrior_Monk

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

Warrior_Monk