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I don't think you should be able to get the first highway back because it says "except this one".

Is there an official ruling on this somewhere?

You are correct, "except this one" refers to all copies of Highway.

or until they throw down The Long Day and start it over again.

That works, except that Highway has to withdraw the hero it's played on. It says "hero" not "a hero".

Highway cannot return another copy of Highway to it's owners hand.

Highway is worded like Momentum Change and we've already been told that Momentum Change cannot return another copy of itself to your hand.  The original thread was purged but you can check this discussion.

Momentum Change
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Grey • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Return all Evil Enhancements except this one to holder's hand if Evil Character loses in battle. • Play As: Return all Evil Enhancements in this battle that were used by this Evil Character except this one to holder's hand if Evil Character loses in battle.

Highway
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Hero may withdraw from battle unharmed. All enhancement cards played may be returned to the player's hand except this one.

So a deck that uses this combo would be illegal then?

The deck is perfectly legal but not very effective since the combo doesn't work.

Highway cannot return another copy of Highway to it's owners hand.

This specific combo was ruled legal by Bryon prior to Nats last year. For further discussion this year,and possible change to make these kinds of combos not work, see this thread for discussion. The interesting bits begin on about page 4 and continue to page 16.

Highway is worded like Momentum Change and we've already been told that Momentum Change cannot return another copy of itself to your hand. 

The difference is that Momentum Change is a triggered ability, whereas Highway is not. Since both Momentum Change activate simultaneously, each one's "except this one" clause exempts itself from being returned to hand. Highway is different. By the time the second Highway triggers, the first one is no longer active, so it doesn't exempt itself from returning to hand.

"Except this one" means except that exact card, not except every card with the same name. If "this one" meant every copy, then how would the "discard this Fortress" part of Headquarters at Riblah's SA work if we both had it active?

Do you have a reference?  I specifically saw this ruled differently in the pre-plurge era, but can find any remaining quotes on here on in the REG that specify.

I'm not sure what those rulings are, because I've never seen them (and for obvious reason I was looking for them). Are your sure you are not confusing them with the rulings about which hero and which enhancements must withdraw?

Besides, wouldn't the ruling on Sin in the Camp (all copies of "this card") apply?

Nope, the Sin in the Camp example actually demonstrates my point that "this card" means "this specific card." There was no Sin in the Camp ruling, Sin in the Camp required an errata to make "this card" mean "all copies of this card."

That works, except that Highway has to withdraw the hero it's played on. It says "hero" not "a hero".

Its been ruled that these are equivalent. This is most clearly seen in the case of set asides where "Set hero aside" and "Set a hero aside" are treated identically.

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 25, 2009, 03:12:45 PM

For further
The difference is that Momentum Change is a triggered ability, whereas Highway is not.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the Momentum Change ruling.  The ruling is that the card cannot be returned to hand regardless of what other cards are played.  That makes no distinction about whether the ability is triggered.

I'm trying to udnerstand what you are saying here. So let's say that a new Black brigade enhancement was made with the same SA as Momentum Change (using MC's Play As), call it Not Again...

Not Again  SA  Return all Evil Enhancements in this battle that were used by this Evil Character except this one to holder's hand if Evil Character loses in battle.

If I played Antiochus IV Epiphanes, could I drop both Momentum Change and Not Again during the battle and get both back (MC gets me NA and vice-versa) in my hand after I let Antiochus die?

Question. What if you used Stillness and Highway? Could you return Stillness with Highway, and Highway with stillness?

That has to work. If you can't recur withdraws how could you possibly make a turn last 15-20 minutes, which is what Rob is concerned about in the Breaking the Game thread.

I think the best answer to that issue was limit the number of times The Long Day can be used. It doesnt cut into any other combos except for the one-turn-wonder, which is what he wanted to get rid of.

The concern which he spelled out was getting infinite initiative (e.g. Red Dragon Stalemate) - usually with choose blocker - playing a bunch of cards, playing a withdraw that retrieved all those cards, and then doing the whole thing over again.  It said nothing about stacking withdraws to pick them both back up.

I can point to at least one post in that thread where I talked about picking withdraws back up and no one had any issues with it. But, seriously, who cares? I threw the comment in to provide robm some context about the whole "combo decks are mean" plaint. If this is a big deal to you, then you're right, you win, whatever it takes to get you to look at the actual question being asked if you feel it wasn't resolved earlier.

I can tell you that a Highway getting back Highway combo was legal last year prior to Nats, I used it at Nats with high level judges looking on, and there was no complaint on legality.

This is a very good point and this is one possible way around the highway recursion problem.  (by the way..I need some stillnesses if people have them!!)  and this is a real life example of mjb's "not again" example that we already have.

Crustpope, the problem is that two situations are not the same. The hypothetical Momentum Change/Not Again combo will not work--for the same reason that Momentum Change x2 doesn't work.  The reason Momentum Change x2 does not work is because both Momentum Change are active at the same time. The first Momentum Change prevents itself from being returned to hand. The second Momentum Change prevents itself from being returned to hand.

For the Highway x2 it is entirely different.  The first Highway activates and returns a hero and all enhancements played on him (except itself). Then it is done. Sometime later the second Highway activates and pulls back the first hero and all enhancements played on him back to hand. What would prevent the first Highway from being returned to hand?

I dont see any reason why a highway/stillness continued recurrsion cannot continue ad nauseum. 

Eventually you will eventually run out of heroes.

This type of debate keeps coming up with the same defense of semantics. Frankly there is only one quote in this whole thread that stands out as the most important to me:

It wasn't very fun to watch my whole deck get discarded.

Can't we get past the semantics and just have fun & fellowship? A game like robm is describing will drive younger players away from Redemption. If we are not trying to expand the player base of this game, then we are sealing its demise with word games that lead to "awesome combos."

I already know who is going to respond to my post and what you are going to say, so to save time I will not respond. I have said what I wanted to say and that is all.

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 25, 2009, 08:00:55 PM

The first Highway activates and returns a hero and all enhancements played on him (except itself). Then it is done. Sometime later the second Highway activates and pulls back the first hero and all enhancements played on him back to hand. What would prevent the first Highway from being returned to hand?

It wasn't played on him, right?  It was played on the hero that was returned.

I'm not sure what you mean by the phrase "played on him." Let me give the precise scenario...

Highway says "Hero may withdraw..." It has been ruled that in this situation "Hero" is the equivalent of "A Hero." (Asked specifically on the board about withdraw enhancements last year prior to the MN Type-2 tournament in 2008.) This means I can use use Highway-A on Hero #2 and choose to return Hero #1 and all the enhancements played on him. In that case, I am not even attempting to return Highway-A to my hand--because you can only return enhancements played by the withdrawing hero and Hero #1 did not play Highway.

I now play some more enhancements on Hero #2, one of which bands in gold Hero #3. I now play a second Highway, Highway-B on Hero #3 and return Hero #2 and all enhancements played on him. One of the enhancements played on Hero #2 was Highway-A.

What would prevent Highway-A from being returned to hand?

Having thought about this some more, what does "played by or "used by" mean when a character is forced from battle, but there is another character of the same brigade is in battle? The enhancements slide over along with all their abilities and ongoing SAs. In what sense are these enhancements not played or used by the second character?

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on April 25, 2009, 08:00:55 PM

...The first Momentum Change prevents itself from being returned to hand. The second Momentum Change prevents itself from being returned to hand...

Quote

What would prevent the first Highway from being returned to hand?

Well, why not itself?  Your logic is that Mo Change prevents itself from being returned to hand.  Why would Highway not prevent itself from being returned to hand?

The Withdrawal SA is an instant ability.  The "except this one" part of the SA is not a separate ability but is included as explanatory text to the withdrawal, i.e., what may not be withdrawn. That would make the "except this one" instantaneous also would it not? Put another way, what evidence is there that the last three words of Highway's SA--"except this one"--is meant to be an ongoing prevent or protect or what-have-you when the rest of the SA completes immediately?

It seems the same to me.

In the Momentum Change x2 case, there is no question that both Momentum Change have their "except this one" active, because both cards activate at the same time. In the Highway x2 case, the SA for the first Highway already completed x-cards ago when the second Highway is played. Those strike me as qualitatively distinct examples.

What would prevent the first Highway from being returned to hand?

I already know who is going to respond to my post and what you are going to say, so to save time I will not respond. I have said what I wanted to say and that is all.

Here is my answer, YMT. The general issue about decks like these has already been ruled on by Rob.