Author Topic: Highway, Stillness, and cards like them (Read 9963 times)

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #50 on:** May 21, 2010, 12:55:24 AM »

Oh, we realize that. No sneakiness, not unseen, we just feel blindsided because of the timing. Even when side battles ravaged t2 the rule change to 1 side battle was NOT made until after nationals.

Bryon · « **Reply #51 on:** May 21, 2010, 01:30:08 AM »

Tim Maly got told IN GAME at nationals that a combo he'd come up with was not legal. Talk about short notice.

He had to play the rest of the game/tournament with that deck.

You can build a national-tournament-winning Type 2 deck the night before an event - even the day of the event. I know it has been done on multiple occasions. Short notice on something like "NJ can only be played with your own Son of God" would be silly, since EVERYONE uses those cards. Those kinds of rulings can be made to happen after nationals. But short notice on a NPE combo that ONLY happens in Type 2 (and only rarely there) is an acceptable trade-off for keeping 20-minute solitaire battles off the table (especially ones that end with you having no deck and little in your hand).

According to most posters on this thread, there are not very many people using a Type 2 deck that relies on Highway or Stillness to be used in an abusive way. The 2-3 players in the country that do can change their decks before a big event.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #52 on:** May 21, 2010, 01:53:53 AM »

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on May 20, 2010, 07:01:59 PM

You would only be able to do it once! Don't forget about the rule that a character can only enter battle once per turn!

Quoting this because I think this needs to be adressed as well.

I know there was a ruling made a while back regarding these combos. Wasn't the rule the one Crash mentioned, where the same hero is not allowed to enter battle twice in the same turn? If so, how would this combo be endlessly repeatable? You'd run out of heroes to use.

CactusRob · « **Reply #53 on:** May 21, 2010, 06:40:28 AM »

There is no compelling reason to delay this errata. Blame me if you don't like it.

crustpope · « **Reply #54 on:** May 21, 2010, 08:24:31 AM »

@ Bryon - I am trying to beat this deck. Jonathans version of this deck. That I did not disclose that I had spent money to build my own version of this deck was not relevant to my question and does not change the fact that the timing and manner in which this decision was made is horrible and only happened because I “reminded” you of something you all should have done much earlier.

@ Rob - With all due respect I believe that there is. The reason that it should be delayed is that those who make the rules have had more than enough time to give the errata out before the major tournaments begin and since you failed to do so, you should not unfairly punish those who, acting in good faith and believing that these combos were legal for this tournament year, invested time, energy and money to create decks that take advantage of them. Doing a quick search, I found two threads, one of them my own, that deal with Highway and deck d/c. Bryon even posted on one of them thanking “the other Prof” for posting a suggested errata that looks very similar to the one he posted at the beginning of this thread. Both of them have been since before February. The fact that we have brought these combos up previously, and no one said or did anything about them until now is, in my opinion, inexcusable. These types of rulings HAVE to be made before the tournament season begins, or at least before the MAJOR tournaments begin.

I understand that combos sometimes appear at the last minute and “emergency” rulings have to be made, but this is not that type of situation and those types of must be used extremely sparingly. This combo has been out for a long time and two threads have been brought up this year, one in December and one in January. Delaying the errata until now is dishonest, unprofessional, and irresponsible.

For the record, I agree with the errata. I do not agree with the timing of the errata. This seems to happen a lot. There is seems to be no Rhyme or Reason to how or when rulings are made. The seem to come crashing down from on high at any moment with little or no warning. There needs to be a set protocol for how and when major changes are made and recently it seems that after Nats has been the default and accepted time for these announcements to take effect. Nerfing a deck before Nats is bad. Nerfing a deck AT Nats is very bad.

Honestly I feel very bitter about this ruling and the way it was handled. I feel as if someone owes me an apology because frankly I feel betrayed simply because I was acting in good faith.

This will be my last post on this issue since it is obvious that it is now settled. I just want to note my strong objection to the way this tuling was handled. This process HAS to be changed in order for Redemption to gain any real credibility.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #55 on:** May 21, 2010, 09:13:55 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on May 21, 2010, 01:30:08 AM

According to most posters on this thread, there are not very many people using a Type 2 deck that relies on Highway or Stillness to be used in an abusive way. The 2-3 players in the country that do can change their decks before a big event.

The fact that so few people use this should be all the more reason NOT to make the errata now. How many will it effect? 2-3 you say? Why is it even worth it? You are going to break your policies just to make 2-3 peoples' decks completely worthless and then make everyone else angry?

Does anyone else feel like the Redemption system is starting to look more and more like a dictatorship? "Here's the ruling, it doesn't matter what you say, you can't change it, just follow the rules...My reason for this you ask? HA! Yeah right..." Only real difference is that this is a card game. I can leave whenever I want. The reason I stay is because of the fun and fellowship it gives, but it is becoming less and less fun when rulings start to be handled this way.

uthminister [BR] · « **Reply #56 on:** May 21, 2010, 09:56:40 AM »

I think for the spirit of the game, fellowship, that this rule is a must. However, changing it during the major tournament season is strange. It would be like the NFL mid-way through playoffs making a running back unable to us the stiff arm. I think that getting bent out of shape over a game is a bit much, but to be fair, these guys have been working on perfecting these decks and their play of these decks all year. Changes for each year should be made immediately after Nationals.

Bryon · « **Reply #57 on:** May 21, 2010, 10:27:46 AM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on May 21, 2010, 09:13:55 AM

Quote from: Bryon on May 21, 2010, 01:30:08 AM
According to most posters on this thread, there are not very many people using a Type 2 deck that relies on Highway or Stillness to be used in an abusive way. The 2-3 players in the country that do can change their decks before a big event.
The fact that so few people use this should be all the more reason NOT to make the errata now. How many will it effect? 2-3 you say? Why is it even worth it? You are going to break your policies just to make 2-3 peoples' decks completely worthless and then make everyone else angry?

Does anyone else feel like the Redemption system is starting to look more and more like a dictatorship? "Here's the ruling, it doesn't matter what you say, you can't change it, just follow the rules...My reason for this you ask? HA! Yeah right..." Only real difference is that this is a card game. I can leave whenever I want. The reason I stay is because of the fun and fellowship it gives, but it is becoming less and less fun when rulings start to be handled this way.

The reason for this ruing is fun and fellowship. 20-minute solitaire turns that discard a ton of cards from your deck and where you can do nothing but watch do not equate to fun and fellowship.

@BB: you are only considering the 2-3 players using the combo, and not considering their victims. If 2-3 people are using the combo, and they each play 5 players at states and 6 players at regionals and 7 players at nationals, then that is 36-54 people who will be subjected to that kind of deck, merely because the 2-3 players who used that combo wanted to be able to use Highway and/or Stillness abusively and had little concern for the fun and fellowship of their 36-54 opponents. Rob and Tim and I were considering ALL the players, not just the 2-3. It is funny that you say this is "starting to look like a dictatorship" because it always has been a dictatorship. This is Rob's game. He makes the call. He listens to players, and especially to the playtesters, and considers all players when he makes his rulings. This is not the first time that you disagree with his decision. I've disagreed with his decisions numerous times over the 12 years I've been playing. But all the times I've disagreed (that I can remember anyway), I've come to see he's been right after all. Tim's been playing the game a lot longer than I have, and I bet he's disagreed with Rob about as many time as I have (if not more). The fun and fellowship in Redemption is in the gameplay, the discussions on the board, etc. It is not about giving every player equal weight in making a decision. Though that might sound nice at first, you would not like the result. The system we have is the system we've always had. It has worked for almost 15 years now. It has survived many, many more rulings more controversial than this.

@crustpope: I will not accept the blame for your lack of full disclosure. I did absolutely nothing wrong. If you had told me that YOU were even considering USING the combo, you'd have a point. As it is, you expected me to read your mind. That is not fair. Playtesters are not in the business of keeping rulings secret so one player can blindside other players at events. We want new rulings out in the open. Similarly, players should not be in the business of telling playtesters that they are trying to BEAT a deck, and not telling them that they are actually building one themselves, so they can blindside the playtester by complaining that a ruling that applies to everyone is told to everyone. I understand your disappointment. But disappointment is no grounds for wrongly accusing me of seeking no other input and somehow betraying you. If anyone should feel betrayed here it is me. You told me only half the truth, and then slandered me publicly for not assuming the rest. Based on what you told me, I handled this exactly the right way. I went straight to the playtester board within minutes of receiving your PM, got their advice, and only reported what Rob approved.

Red · « **Reply #58 on:** May 21, 2010, 10:30:43 AM »

After a PM from gabe and the realzation that i don't play T2 i am ok with this ruleing now. now if you touch my Elymas abuse i'll kill.(JK)

Bryon · « **Reply #59 on:** May 21, 2010, 10:34:17 AM »

Quote from: uthminister [BR] on May 21, 2010, 09:56:40 AM

I think for the spirit of the game, fellowship, that this rule is a must. However, changing it during the major tournament season is strange. It would be like the NFL mid-way through playoffs making a running back unable to us the stiff arm.

But using the stiff arm was a lot more common that using Highway this way.

This is more like making a rule that running backs can't cover their shoulder pads with razor blades.

If there were a couple players using those, I don't think anyone would complain that that rule is made in the middle of the playoff season.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #60 on:** May 21, 2010, 10:34:48 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on May 21, 2010, 10:27:46 AM

20-minute solitaire turns that discard a ton of cards from your deck and where you can do nothing but watch do not equate to fun and fellowship.

I still don't understand how the 20 minute turns with The Long Day are even possible, because I thought we already MADE a rule to stop this type of abuse, which I had asked about earlier and still havent heard anything about it...

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on May 21, 2010, 01:53:53 AM

Quote from: Crashfach2002 on May 20, 2010, 07:01:59 PM
You would only be able to do it once! Don't forget about the rule that a character can only enter battle once per turn!

Quoting this because I think this needs to be adressed as well.

I know there was a ruling made a while back regarding these combos. Wasn't the rule the one Crash mentioned, where the same hero is not allowed to enter battle twice in the same turn? If so, how would this combo be endlessly repeatable? You'd run out of heroes to use.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #61 on:** May 21, 2010, 10:37:33 AM »

Well, you really only need 10 heroes to discard 100 cards in this combo, and since it is most likely that this happens maybe 8ish turns into the game, you really only have to legitamately discard about 70 cards. You can do this with only 7 characters (which is not hard to get by turn 8 in a t2)

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #62 on:** May 21, 2010, 10:41:22 AM »

While I am somewhat disgusted that a major errata would be issued literally days before high-level tournaments, I do agree that only dictatorships really get anything done. If DMM had as much say in what goes on as Bryon, we'd be in a sorry state.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #63 on:** May 21, 2010, 11:05:34 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on May 21, 2010, 10:27:46 AM

The reason for this ruing is fun and fellowship. 20-minute solitaire turns that discard a ton of cards from your deck and where you can do nothing but watch do not equate to fun and fellowship.
...
you are only considering the 2-3 players using the combo, and not considering their victims. If 2-3 people are using the combo, and they each play 5 players at states and 6 players at regionals and 7 players at nationals, then that is 36-54 people who will be subjected to that kind of deck, merely because the 2-3 players who used that combo wanted to be able to use Highway and/or Stillness abusively and had little concern for the fun and fellowship of their 36-54 opponents. Rob and Tim and I were considering ALL the players, not just the 2-3.

If this combo is really so destructive that it can ruin the lives of 50+ people, why aren't more people using it? It's been around for years. Why is it so dangerous now, all of a sudden, in the middle of a season?

Quote

It is funny that you say this is "starting to look like a dictatorship" because it always has been a dictatorship. This is Rob's game. He makes the call. He listens to players, and especially to the playtesters, and considers all players when he makes his rulings. This is not the first time that you disagree with his decision. I've disagreed with his decisions numerous times over the 12 years I've been playing. But all the times I've disagreed (that I can remember anyway), I've come to see he's been right after all. Tim's been playing the game a lot longer than I have, and I bet he's disagreed with Rob about as many time as I have (if not more). The fun and fellowship in Redemption is in the gameplay, the discussions on the board, etc. It is not about giving every player equal weight in making a decision. Though that might sound nice at first, you would not like the result. The system we have is the system we've always had. It has worked for almost 15 years now. It has survived many, many more rulings more controversial than this.

Yes, this game is a dictatorship. However, one of the first things I noticed when I first got on these boards was how much the people - ordinary people like myself even - were listened to (although the more ordinary less than the more distinguished of course). It functioned like a democracy (still with Rob as president of course), and I greatly appreciate that anywhere I can find it. Lately though, I have been sickened by the way most ruling changes are being handled. Out of the blue it seems, a playtester or someone just comes out and says, "this is the rule now. Goodbye." I can't remember now what ruling in particular I got frustrated with before, but this is not the first time this has happened in the last month or so. Also, I've never had the most amazing memory, so it's possible things have always been the same way and I just remember wrong, although there's no doubt I'm seeing a lot more opposition from people lately than I remember seeing.

Quote from: Bryon on May 21, 2010, 10:34:17 AM

This is more like making a rule that running backs can't cover their shoulder pads with razor blades. If there were a couple players using those, I don't think anyone would complain that that rule is made in the middle of the playoff season.

Yeah, but I think a problem like that would be resolved as soon as it surfaced, not years later.

But here's what really grinds my gears: 90% of the people posting here disagree with the two or three people deciding what course of action to take. Not only that, but 90% of those people all agree with each other on the course of action that they think should be taken. Shouldn't that make a little light bulb go off?

And all this with all due respect for the founders and maintainers of this game, whom I thank very much for their efforts.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #64 on:** May 21, 2010, 11:32:09 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on May 21, 2010, 01:30:08 AM

But short notice on a NPE combo that ONLY happens in Type 2

You are wrong on that account. I won numerous games at regionals and nationals last year with a T1 combo deck that relied on Highway to rinse and repeat.

Rob,

To answer your question, I think it is unfair for a player such as myself. I have barely thought about Redemption since last nationals. Prior to nationals, at nationals, and after nationals, I heard from numerous playtesters that a Highway errata would potentially happen. I checked the boards every month or so to see if any such errata was made. Then state tournaments started happening and no errata had occurred. I don't have time to play Redemption during the school year and I don't know if I will have any time this summer. As a result, I determined about a month ago due to the fact that no errata had been made before the start of major tournament season, that if I was able to make it to nationals, I would just use a modified version of a combo deck that I was familiar with since I would not have time to test out other deck options adequately.

Due to such a change after I am in the process of carrying along with summer life without time for Redemption, it is frustrating to know that if I intend to compete at tournaments that I will have to expound extra time than I anticipated into the process. I wouldn't have minded at all if such an errata was made earlier so that I could appropriately prepare and position myself if I were to choose to play this summer. However, such is not the case.

Please do the community a favor and issue errata that has been discussed for long lengths of time earlier in the future. I can see the line of thinking that it is ok to issue last minute errata to combos that are hidden from public view where playtesters are unaware of the game breaking possibilities. However, for combos with game breaking possibilities that the playtesters have been aware of for long lengths of time and have discussed extensively in the past, why wait to issue errata? The delay sends a green light to users of such a card. Then when you send a red light, players feel slighted and that they have been led astray.

Consumer confidence drops due to lack of effective communication. I, for one, have definitely had my confidence in Redemption drop. Who is to say that such a late change of such importance will not happen aagin?

Sincerely,

A loyal customer of 11 years

P.S. Just to be clear, I am not attached to this card working as it used to work. I know that many people do not share my enthusiasm about lock down combo decks that are oh so fun and effective in T1 and T2, but that is another topic and I have made my opinion clear about such in the past. My beef is with the matter of principle brought to light at this juncture.

STAMP · « **Reply #65 on:** May 21, 2010, 02:50:43 PM »

I read through this thread and would like to make a few points, one being an alarming new trend that is seldom discussed.

1) I applaud the PTB for moving quickly on this errata. When there is a broken combo, a swift resolution is best regardless of the timing during torunament season.

2) I believe the errata is a necessary one.

3) I am not always happy with major rulings/errata because it may put a crimp in my playing style, however I am always 100% supportive if they maintain the strength and popularity of the game.

And now for my main point, which is a growing concern:

More and more rulings are being instituted that impact all category types when it is only being abused in one category type.

I am primarily a Type 2 player. I enjoy this category more than most. However, I am dismayed that the combos I see in Type 2 are impacting Type 1 players. There have also been erratas that have impacted multi or 2-player categories negatively. I'm afraid to see what changes occur due to the now-recognized team event.

Do I have a solution? No. But I hope that the PTB start to consider this issue for future rulings.

Bryon · « **Reply #66 on:** May 21, 2010, 02:53:10 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on May 21, 2010, 11:05:34 AM

Quote from: Bryon on May 21, 2010, 10:27:46 AM
The reason for this ruing is fun and fellowship. 20-minute solitaire turns that discard a ton of cards from your deck and where you can do nothing but watch do not equate to fun and fellowship.
...
you are only considering the 2-3 players using the combo, and not considering their victims. If 2-3 people are using the combo, and they each play 5 players at states and 6 players at regionals and 7 players at nationals, then that is 36-54 people who will be subjected to that kind of deck, merely because the 2-3 players who used that combo wanted to be able to use Highway and/or Stillness abusively and had little concern for the fun and fellowship of their 36-54 opponents. Rob and Tim and I were considering ALL the players, not just the 2-3.
If this combo is really so destructive that it can ruin the lives of 50+ people, why aren't more people using it? It's been around for years. Why is it so dangerous now, all of a sudden, in the middle of a season?

More people are not using it because it does not win consistently enough. It takes some turns to set up. But, as we have said numerous, numerous, numerous, numerous times in the past (only to be ignored and ignored and ignored and ignored apparently), we don't issue errata ONLY because it makes someone WIN all the time. We issue rule changes or errata when a 20-minute solitaire turn is POSSIBLE. Some errata is given if it is too powerful or difficult to stop and makes victory conditions easier to achieve (Holy Grail, for example). But others are simply to keep the game fun (the one side-battle-per-turn rule change, for example).

Redemption players are spoiled when it comes to errata and rule changes happening in-season. In Lord of the Rings, it was common for a ruling document to be released one day, and have a major tournament a couple days later. Entire strategies went out the window. No warning, no input from players (just playtesters). In fact, it was not uncommon for an entire expansion to release a week or two before major tournaments, and new rulings/errata/outright banning of some of those cards were still being posted a couple days before the events. A player in my playgroup used to win Yu-Gi-Oh tournaments here in So-Cal. Once he showed up to a tournament only to find that a new list had been posted earlier that week that had banned/restricted/whatevered 12 cards in his deck, which formed the skeleton on his entire strategy! That is the nature of TCGs. Redemption makes changes to RULES after nationals, where reasonable. Redemption makes errata/play as changes where needed. If a combo is very popular, sometimes we delay. If a combo is not super popular, yet has the potential to be devastating (and running counter to Fun and Fellowship), then we can act right away.

Because the Highway/Stillness issue had been discussed almost a year ago, and playtesters had been in agreement at that time that it should get errata, I thought the issue had already been decided. As I wrote earlier, I was not aware that this combo was still happening, since I don't see it at all in CA.

When crustpope PMed me, I was surprised that he was facing a deck with that combo, since I didn't realize we had not made that change. (I think it was a matter of playtesters thinking that the other guy had already posted it, so the ball slipped through the fingers of all of us). I'm sorry we dropped the ball. Crustpope is absolutely correct when he says that this should have happened months ago. I thought it had. Tim thought that it may have, and thought that what I posted at the top of this thread was actually a "play as" and not errata. I guess we never posted that. I'm really very sorry we did not catch it sooner.

However, I see no reason that we should allow this combo to continue through this tournament season. Not enough players use it to warrant a delay. Enough players have the potential to face it to make it worth enacting now. Rob agrees. Your disagreement is noted. I apologized that this was not done earlier. Though it MIGHT have a negative effect on 2-3 players now (but those 2-3 players may end up making even better decks now), it WILL have a positive effect on the game as a whole.

Again, I am sorry for my share of the ball-dropping on this one.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #67 on:** May 21, 2010, 03:04:31 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on May 21, 2010, 02:53:10 PM

In Lord of the Rings, it was common for a ruling document to be released one day, and have a major tournament a couple days later. Entire strategies went out the window. No warning, no input from players (just playtesters). In fact, it was not uncommon for an entire expansion to release a week or two before major tournaments, and new rulings/errata/outright banning of some of those cards were still being posted a couple days before the events.

Yeah, well, LotR is dead, so...

Quote

Because the Highway/Stillness issue had been discussed almost a year ago, and playtesters had been in agreement at that time that it should get errata, I thought the issue had already been decided. As I wrote earlier, I was not aware that this combo was still happening, since I don't see it at all in CA.

When crustpope PMed me, I was surprised that he was facing a deck with that combo, since I didn't realize we had not made that change. (I think it was a matter of playtesters thinking that the other guy had already posted it, so the ball slipped through the fingers of all of us). I'm sorry we dropped the ball. Crustpope is absolutely correct when he says that this should have happened months ago. I thought it had. Tim thought that it may have, and thought that what I posted at the top of this thread was actually a "play as" and not errata. I guess we never posted that. I'm really very sorry we did not catch it sooner.

However, I see no reason that we should allow this combo to continue through this tournament season. Not enough players use it to warrant a delay. Enough players have the potential to face it to make it worth enacting now. Rob agrees. Your disagreement is noted. I apologized that this was not done earlier. Though it MIGHT have a negative effect on 2-3 players now (but those 2-3 players may end up making even better decks now), it WILL have a positive effect on the game as a whole.

Again, I am sorry for my share of the ball-dropping on this one.

Well, I guess I can't complain too much, as it doesn't really affect me at all, but still, I hope you've learned your lesson on this one. :wagfinger:

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #68 on:** May 21, 2010, 03:36:54 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on May 21, 2010, 02:53:10 PM

...the Highway/Stillness issue had been discussed almost a year ago, and playtesters had been in agreement at that time that it should get errata, I thought the issue had already been decided....I didn't realize we had not made that change. (I think it was a matter of playtesters thinking that the other guy had already posted it, so the ball slipped through the fingers of all of us). I'm sorry we dropped the ball.

I appreciate your apology Bryon. This should be the end of the issue regarding this specific errata. And things are in the works to help prevent future "ball-droppings", so hopefully everyone will be able to come together and keep supporting this game that we all love, and the people like Rob and Bryon who have put so much of themselves into making it all possible

crustpope · « **Reply #69 on:** May 21, 2010, 05:18:18 PM »

I also appreciate the apology because this was what got me thinking that this was a valid combination.

I have apologized to Bryon in private but I would like to make public my apology for jumping to the conclusion that Bryon made this decision by himself in response to my PM. I based my assumptions on the fact that the timing seemed way to short to include many, if any, other PTB.

I apologize for any terse comments or accusations I made based on that assumption.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #70 on:** May 21, 2010, 05:43:14 PM »

In that case, this thread should probably be locked, as the decision is obviously final, and there are no outstanding disagreements.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #71 on:** May 21, 2010, 05:49:18 PM »

thankfully my stillness combo still works.

News:

Author Topic: Highway, Stillness, and cards like them (Read 9963 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Warrior_Monk