Author Topic: Hidden treasures (Read 1948 times)

Lex1122 · « **on:** June 12, 2018, 12:26:13 PM »

Hidden treasure says if your lone green prophet enters battle you may play n enhancement or search there deck and discard an evil enhancement.

Can HT be negated?

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #1 on:** June 12, 2018, 12:30:50 PM »

Bobbert · « **Reply #2 on:** June 12, 2018, 12:31:19 PM »

The only relevant part here is that play abilities inherently cannot be interrupted. The entire artifact can be prevented,and the search/discard is fully negatable, but if the play goes off it can't be undone.

The Guardian · « **Reply #3 on:** June 12, 2018, 12:37:04 PM »

Quote from: Bobbert on June 12, 2018, 12:31:19 PM

The only relevant part here is that play abilities inherently cannot be interrupted. The entire artifact can be prevented,and the search/discard is fully negatable, but if the play goes off it can't be undone.

Correct. The enhancement can be undone (unless it is CBI or CBN), but you can't negate Hidden Treasures in order to negate the enhancement.

Lex1122 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 13, 2018, 08:35:28 AM »

If Paul (who negates neutral cards) enters battle alone does he negate HT?

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #5 on:** June 13, 2018, 08:43:12 AM »

Lex1122 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 13, 2018, 08:45:15 AM »

How? If HT is CBI and Paul enters how can he negate it? Does the Hero’s ability trigger first or does HT? So as far as the playing the first enhancement goes I should be able do that but Paul does negate the search and discard right?

Lex1122 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 13, 2018, 08:49:31 AM »

My next question is this if my opponent has the throne out and I take nebuknezzar without a weapon. I then search out a weapon and place it on nebuknezzar does the throne get to trigger cause when I first blocked my EC was not equipped with a weapon? Or does the throne “turn off” when it sees that my EC now has a weapon in battle!

Watchman · « **Reply #8 on:** June 13, 2018, 08:53:39 AM »

Hero abilities always activate first, followed by any pending ability, which HT is. Paul would negate HT prior to HT being able to activate.

Watchman · « **Reply #9 on:** June 13, 2018, 08:58:21 AM »

Quote from: Lex1122 on June 13, 2018, 08:49:31 AM

My next question is this if my opponent has the throne out and I take nebuknezzar without a weapon. I then search out a weapon and place it on nebuknezzar does the throne get to trigger cause when I first blocked my EC was not equipped with a weapon? Or does the throne “turn off” when it sees that my EC now has a weapon in battle!

If Nebie blocks without a weapon then Throne triggers and waits to resolve once all prior abilities are resolved. So if he searches out a crimson weapon and plays it that weapon resolves. Once that resolves then Throne resolves. Throne wouldn’t “turn off” as its trigger condition was already met prior to the weapon being played. The only way Throne’s ability wouldn’t work is if it was negated.

Lex1122 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 13, 2018, 08:59:05 AM »

Ok but is that the search ability or the whole card? In Ht?

Watchman · « **Reply #11 on:** June 13, 2018, 09:00:37 AM »

Quote from: Lex1122 on June 13, 2018, 08:59:05 AM

Ok but is that the search ability or the whole card?

Can you be more specific please?

Watchman · « **Reply #12 on:** June 13, 2018, 09:01:37 AM »

Quote from: Lex1122 on June 13, 2018, 08:59:05 AM

Ok but is that the search ability or the whole card? In Ht?

The entire ability on HT is negated.

Lex1122 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 13, 2018, 09:06:55 AM »

Ok so with “Nebie” if I get Swift horses with his search ability does that interrupt thrones pending ability?

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #14 on:** June 13, 2018, 09:30:48 AM »

it doesn't interrupt it, but throne doesn't work if the EC has a weapon, so throne doesn't work

Lex1122 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 13, 2018, 09:33:21 AM »

So is the watchman mistaken? If I use Nebie to search out a weapon the throne doesn’t work?

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #16 on:** June 13, 2018, 09:38:54 AM »

nebbies ability would have to complete before throne could be triggered, so the weapon would be in battle before throne gets a chance to trigger I believe

Lex1122 · « **Reply #17 on:** June 13, 2018, 09:41:24 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on May 09, 2012, 02:24:39 PM

Hey,

Quote from: Prof Underwood on May 08, 2012, 09:43:50 PM
Is TToD a "trigger" or a "condition"?

The Throne of David is a trigger. The Throne of David is a tricky example because there is a static condition attached to the trigger. Static conditions function differently from dynamic conditions. Dynamic conditions (i.e. Iron Pan) can change back and forth because they go with ongoing abilities. Static conditions go with instant abilities so they only matter at the moment the instant ability happens (they are also often, but not always, something that cannot change). "If used by a prophet" is a classic example of a static condition.

The Throne of David is triggered when a blocker is presented, it then waits it's turn to take effect, when it gets to it's turn it then checks to see if the static condition is true (are there no evil weapons in battle) if the condition is satisfied it does it's thing, if the condition is not satisfied it doesn't do anything.

Quote from: galadgawyn on May 09, 2012, 01:14:16 AM
before it was said that a characters ability happened simultaneously as a part of them entering battle.

In other words a character hasn't entered battle yet if they're special ability hasn't activated. There is no gap between them entering battle and their special ability activating. They're not even separate activities; they are one and the same action.

I'm not exactly sure how or why we set it up this way, but in Redemption multiple things can happen "at the same time" and yet still happen in sequence. Seven Wicked Spirits enters battle, Seven Wicked Spirits begins to activate it's ability, and The Throne of David is Triggered all happen at the same time, but they happen in that order. (Note that Seven Wicked Spirits "begins to activate" before The Throne of David is triggered, but The Throne of David is triggered before you actually "do" any part of Seven Wicked Spirits ability.)

The idea that a character entering battle and it's ability taking effect being the same action and the first not being true until the second happened was popular for a while, and was official for a few days, but it was shot down rather quickly because it creates logical paradoxes.

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Abijah, son of Samuel (Pi)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 4 / 7 • Class: None • Special Ability: Each time opponent plays an Enhancement in battle, you may draw a card. •

If I play Reach and another card, then will they draw 1, 2, or 0? By the time Abijah reactivates, no enhancement is being played so I don't see why they would draw any.

When Reach is played, before any of it actually happens, Abijah is triggered to draw a card. That draw doesn't happen until after Reach completes, but it is triggered before Reach happens. Reach then interrupts Abijah, making Abijah not active, and while it is inactive reach allows another card to be played. The other card is played while Abijah is not active, so it does not trigger Abijah again. Reach then completes, Abijah kicks back in, now Reach is done and Abijah is still triggered and waiting to draw, so he does. He draws 1.

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The Throne of David can only triggered when the initial blocker is presented. ("blocked" has multiple possible definitions, the presentation of the initial blocker is the definition being used here.)

I'm still not sure if what this means if Solomon brings TToD out after the initial blocker is presented.

It means that The Throne of David can only be triggered when the initial blocker is presented. If The Throne of David enters play after that moment in battle it cannot be triggered during that battle.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Watchman · « **Reply #18 on:** June 13, 2018, 09:42:43 AM »

Jazz is correct. After re-reading Throne it appears that once all abilities are resolved, and if Swift is placed in battle and used and the ability resolves, then Throne checks to see if the condition is met. And since there is an EC in battle with a weapon then the draw and play ability does not trigger. I was thinking that as soon as the EC blocks then the condition is met right then and there.

And Swift only ITB, not cards in territory (like Throne).

Josh · « **Reply #19 on:** June 13, 2018, 12:02:54 PM »

Quote from: Lex1122 on June 13, 2018, 08:35:28 AM

If Paul (who negates neutral cards) enters battle alone does he negate HT?

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on June 13, 2018, 08:43:12 AM

yes

I agree that Paul wouldn't be able to discard an EE out of opponent's deck, but how would Paul be able to negate HT's Play ability? Play abilities are CBI. And as far as I can tell, it's been ruled that an ongoing trigger for a CBI ability is itself CBI (which is what Hidden Treasures is).

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #20 on:** June 13, 2018, 12:05:10 PM »

the ability is prevented by Paul before it triggers, so CBI doesn't matter

Josh · « **Reply #21 on:** June 13, 2018, 12:22:10 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on June 13, 2018, 12:05:10 PM

the ability is prevented by Paul before it triggers, so CBI doesn't matter

Well, if the ability is CBI, it's active before Paul ever enters battle. Hidden Treasures might only trigger during the battle phase, but it has an ongoing ability that is active when it is activated during the prep phase. So it all depends on whether the ongong trigger for a CBI ability is also CBI or not.

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Author Topic: Hidden treasures (Read 1948 times)