Author Topic: Hidden Treasures/Rachel/Joseph  (Read 1512 times)

Offline Jonesy

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Hidden Treasures/Rachel/Joseph
« on: June 14, 2014, 03:12:33 PM »
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Can i still play an enhancement on Joseph using hidden treasures if i switched Rachel to get Joseph?

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Hidden Treasures/Rachel/Joseph
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2014, 03:44:25 PM »
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Researching this one shows me that there is a lot of disagreement, and while there seems to have been a ruling in place prior to Nats 2013, I think it might be reopened by the Elders if necessary or there is disagreement.

I will not give my input on this yet, just saying that the thread I linked seems to indicate the determination on HT is done after all hero abilities activate.

Offline Jonesy

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Re: Hidden Treasures/Rachel/Joseph
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2014, 03:48:57 PM »
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Thanks! :)

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Hidden Treasures/Rachel/Joseph
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2014, 11:04:38 PM »
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I really don't see the problem. HT say sthe green prophet has to begin the battle.  If Rachel starts the battle than Joseph didn't begin it.
Just one more thing...

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Hidden Treasures/Rachel/Joseph
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2014, 11:33:16 PM »
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I really don't see the problem. HT say sthe green prophet has to begin the battle.  If Rachel starts the battle than Joseph didn't begin it.

See this post with the explanation for what seems to be the current ruling, which disagrees with that sentiment for reasons explained there.  If there is a difference, an Elder can correct it, but that is what I would base rulings on as a judge currently based on the outcome of that thread.

Chris

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Re: Hidden Treasures/Rachel/Joseph
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2014, 11:51:45 PM »
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It's really a decision that can go either way. Tim's logic works fine, unless we decide that Hidden Treasures is dynamic and constantly checking, in which case, the first character pushed into battle would decide whether or not HT kicks in. The only reason it couldn't be ruled this way is if the Elders go "we don't want to do that." Given that it's really just a choice of one way or the other, the least complicated ruling would be to follow the wording on the card to the letter: The character that literally starts the battle is the one HT looks at.

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Hidden Treasures/Rachel/Joseph
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2014, 12:45:13 AM »
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The post you pointed to also points out that was never meant to be a long term decision but was made because of an imminent major tournament.
Just one more thing...

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Hidden Treasures/Rachel/Joseph
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2014, 12:58:38 AM »
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The post you pointed to also points out that was never meant to be a long term decision but was made because of an imminent major tournament.

As I said, that is how I would base rulings as a judge.  There has been nothing to come out afterwards to change that thread, so I would stick with it (we have to have a ruling to go by).

To Chris's points, I will make the counterpoints as part of the current ruling.

First, if you exchange, "In addition to switching locations, if either of the cards is targeted by other abilities when the exchange is carried out, the targets of those other abilities are also switched."  HT is a trigger ability.  It cannot insert itself between other cards, but the condition can (see Uzzah blocking with Throne up still allowing a play due to the "block" still occurring for similar rulings; see also Rescuer's Choice allowing the rescue of an soul exchanged for the one selected at the start of battle).  So, the ability on HT is viewing the hero that enters battle, and is continuing to do so to check if its condition is met.  However, before it can trigger, Rachel exchanges for Joseph, which also exchanges the targets for all abilities targeting Rachel to Joseph.  This includes HT, so by the time the trigger activates, it is viewing Joseph as the hero who entered battle.

Second, we know that HT does not view only that initial step of adding a hero to battle, because it does not activate if there is a band (for the same reason that you cannot activate the Demon Discard soul on any rescue, even if they band).  HT must wait until all abilities complete to activate, which includes bands and any other abilities, so HT also has a check to complete after the enter-battle step is completed, and it checks for the condition at that moment as well.  This is why it is ruled that Simeon+Anna does not activate HT, because at the moment it is able to trigger, the condition is false.

This is the ruling as I understand it, with the reasons behind the ruling.  As I said, unless you hear otherwise (Elders please pounce if needed), that would be the ruling that is still in effect.  Hope that all helps.

Chris

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Re: Hidden Treasures/Rachel/Joseph
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2014, 01:08:56 AM »
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Ah, I understand. In order for it to work as I described, it would have to "check" twice (once right as the battle begins to see if the hero is a green brigade prophet, and once after any character abilities to complete to ensure there's only one hero in battle), which is less intuitive. The issue I still have is that then it's possible that a green brigade prophet doesn't actually have to "start the battle," but I guess that's just poor wording as much as it is anything else. I'm not thrilled with it, but I suppose the way you described is the better way to do it. I also agree that regardless of whether it's the best way or not, it is the status quo right now.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Hidden Treasures/Rachel/Joseph
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2014, 01:13:15 AM »
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I agree it is slightly less intuitive, but part of the downside of having it be absolutely intuitive is any prophet starting a battle being allowed to use HT, or for the Demon Discarder soul to go away every battle that it is not negated, because you would always start with a 'lone hero'.  Also, we now have definitions for conditions and triggers, and they are fairly consistent at this point.  The HT ruling we have meshes very well with that understanding.

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Hidden Treasures/Rachel/Joseph
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2014, 08:08:54 PM »
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I'm in favor of the position that Redoubter has set out.
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browarod

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Re: Hidden Treasures/Rachel/Joseph
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2014, 03:16:32 PM »
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What I gathered after refreshing myself from the 2013 thread was that HT cannot check solely based on the Hero that physically enters battle to start the battle phase because that would cause other cards with similar wording to break (such as the Demon Discard LS) and because then the "lone" terminology wouldn't matter since you always technically start battle with a lone Hero (as their ability would be what bands in any further Heroes). As such, it either needs to check after all Hero abilities (and associated trigger abilities) have finished, or as Redoubter pointed out it needs to have an ongoing check that starts at the beginning and continues checking until HT actually gets to resolve. In my opinion, I think the former (checking after all abilities finish) is clearer, simpler, and more intuitive but I'm happy with either explanation (which both lead to the same end result of Rachel exchanging for Joseph allowing the use of HT).

 


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