Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote

It has actually not resolved, by the current ruling

Yes, it has. I am saying exactly what you're wanting me to say, you're just not agreeing with it. In Redemption, all ability chains completely resolve.

Did I ever try to argue that something like Jezebel + Ahab didn't work?  No.

You are trying to make a completely different argument than "chains".  In the case of characters with a band ability or weapons or so on, those abilities are already being resolved.  They all resolve, and then SI is resolved.

However, in the case of triggers (which is my whole point, and you haven't paid attention to), the triggers must wait.  If I had a Purple king blocked by an EC who could play an enhancement, would Throne of David or Special Initiative happen first?  Special Initiative.

It is exactly the same case here.  This is a trigger that requires a condition to fulfill, and it may not insert itself in other abilities.  If the last thing done in the 'chain' is the withdraw ability, the Special Initiative the withdraw causes must resolve before any triggers can activate off of it.

That's the point.  You keep arguing with chains and so on, but ignore everything I'm telling you about Triggers.  They must wait to activate.

Source please.

Already given.  But since you can't find it in my previous post:

Quote from: Elder Consensus

    Triggers have to wait for active special abilities to finish first.  Triggered abilities are started by an instant event ("when X happens, do Y") or are manually triggered ("at any time X is true, you may do Y" abilities).

    Conditions do NOT have to wait for active special abilities to finish.  Conditions are always checking for an ongoing state and always result in ongoing abilities ("while X is true, give ongoing effect Y").

    Card                       Trigger         Effect             Ability to insert during SAs
    Unknown Nation       Manual        Instant            No, never for triggered abilities
    Gates of Samaria     Automatic    Instant            No, never for triggered abilities
    Bearing Bad News     Automatic    Ongoing          No, never for triggered abilities
    Iron Pan                 none           Ongoing          Yes, it updates constantly

    Another example of an "always working" ongoing check in Redemption is X/X values on characters like Silly Women or The Angel with the Secret Name.  Those Xs can change during other effects, too.  They don't wait and do checks after each card completes.  They are fluid.

I think keeping "abilities complete" intact with a slightly weird spot for special initiative is better than abandoning that central tenant of how the game works in order to make special initiative behave differently. That is to say, cards have been designed with ability completion in mind for over a decade now, and changing that would make sweeping changes to the game without improving it. I'm all for changes that will improve the game, but I would see this as a horizontal move.

Actually this would only affect situations with Special Initiative, otherwise "abilities complete" would still be intact. It would be one exception that, I think, is far easier to work out. You deal with each case of Special Initiative when the situation occurs (rather than having to wait and then go back...or something like that). The way it currently is abilities only sort of complete with special initiative.

My problem with the current ruling is that it makes a bunch of confusing situations. Whereas I suggest a simple solution that, while changing how a handful of cards work, would also make an easy way to go through complex situations.

Pol is correct. Both ways of looking at this rule have valid view points and logic behind them. Herod will capture the hero because that trigger gets to go off before special initiative kicks in. *this is not official, but if it helps you to visualize it, consider special initiative as a triggered ability. Now we simply have two competing triggers, which herod wins.

So we can change the way the ruling on Triggers had been interpreted, just recently?  The way it had been interpreted for us was that triggers wait for everything (see TToD discussions) to complete before they activate.

In this case, how can a hero have withdrawn if they are still in battle?  Because that is the situation created by a withdraw that causes Special Initiative.  The hero is not withdrawn (which would be a defeat) until there is an opportunity for SI.  And if the hero is still in battle and has not withdrawn, how could you possibly activate a trigger on the withdraw?

This would indeed change the (incredibly recent) ruling on Triggers and the (also recent) clarifications we have for Special Initiative.

Quote

The hero is not withdrawn (which would be a defeat) until there is an opportunity for SI.

'
As I've been saying for a while, now backed up by multiple elders, that's simply not. how. it. works.

And as I've been saying for awhile now:  You're basing your statements on old rulings.  If they want to change the way triggers and SI work, that's on them, but the ruling being presented here actually conflicts with the recent rulings.

That's.  What.  I'm.  Saying.