Author Topic: Hero(d)-mans? (Read 10469 times)

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 28, 2011, 06:25:12 PM »

Are salome or herodius considered Roman?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #26 on:** March 28, 2011, 06:41:33 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on March 28, 2011, 06:25:12 PM

Are salome or herodius considered Roman?

That's actually a good question. They were both descended from Herod the Great, which is how the other Herods obtained their citizenship, however, women were not citizens in the same sense as men in the Roman Empire: they couldn't vote or hold political office. I haven't been able to find whether women born outside of Rome could have citizenship conferred upon them, or if female citizenship could be inherited from a person who had been granted citizenship. I would probably say no for now, until more is determined.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #27 on:** March 30, 2011, 12:00:15 AM »

I know this is a poor reference, but the story of Medea, she moved with her husband to another country and did not have citizenship. I know this kind of went for all females back in the day. If you were not born there, you were not a citizen.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 30, 2011, 07:58:51 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 28, 2011, 06:41:33 PM

women were not citizens in the same sense as men in the Roman Empire: they couldn't vote or hold political office.

Although you are correct that a woman could not be considered a citizen of Rome, the right to vote/hold political office are probably not the most useful criteria. There were different levels of Roman citizenship with voting and holding office reserved to the most privileged citizens. It is not clear that the inhabitants of Tarsus (and hence Paul) were given the right to vote or hold political office when the (male) inhabitants were granted citizenship.

crustpope · « **Reply #29 on:** March 30, 2011, 03:27:55 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on March 27, 2011, 02:39:48 AM

If Saul gets to be a Roman, I think it foolish that the Herods are not.

I disagree. The Herods were Idumean (edomites) and worked hard to convince the Jews that they were good Jews as well. They would have worked for Rome, yes, becuase the political climate dictated that they do that or lose their heads, but they would not have considered themselves romans at all. To do so would have doomed them.

I think before we say that herods are romans we have to define exactly who is a roman? Is it a roman citizen? is it someone involved with roman government?

I think civilizations should be limited to one civilization. Paul is either a hebrew or a roman or a syrian or.....whatever. You cannot be part of two different civilizations. just like citizenships you are normally limited to one citizenship.

Now you can have other identifiers like pharisee, musician, magician, royalty etc. but I strongly believe that civilizations should be limited to only one.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #30 on:** March 30, 2011, 04:36:30 PM »

Quote from: crustpope on March 30, 2011, 03:27:55 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on March 27, 2011, 02:39:48 AM
If Saul gets to be a Roman, I think it foolish that the Herods are not.

I disagree. The Herods were Idumean (edomites) and worked hard to convince the Jews that they were good Jews as well. They would have worked for Rome, yes, becuase the political climate dictated that they do that or lose their heads, but they would not have considered themselves romans at all. To do so publically would have doomed them.

Fixed.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #31 on:** April 02, 2011, 10:20:54 PM »

If the Herods were in fact given Roman citizenship, then I honestly don't see how you can get around them being Roman.

crustpope · « **Reply #32 on:** April 03, 2011, 02:27:45 AM »

Because having Roman citizenship was different than citizenship today. In that time it gave you certain legal rightts and privleges and was basically reserved for either native born italians or the super rich non-italians, but those super rich non-italians were still known by their native civilization. They were still Greek/Hebrew/Idumean....they just also had the privlege of apealing to caesar.

pauls own testimony says he views himself as a Hebrew, not a roman. Just because he was a roman citizen didnt make him italian. Having a roman citizenship was more like having a AAA card to those who werent born italian.

Gabe · « **Reply #33 on:** May 09, 2011, 10:34:41 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 26, 2011, 08:16:03 PM

The Amalekite's Slave is Egyptian and Amalekite...

This came up in a discussion I had with another player recently. For the record, The Amalekite's Slave is only Egyptian. I know having Amalekite in the name makes it confusing. Being owned and mistreated by an Amalekite for a period of his life does not make him an Amalekite.

JSB23 · « **Reply #34 on:** May 09, 2011, 11:36:07 PM »

And then he got an idea.
A terrible,awful idea...

Korunks · « **Reply #35 on:** May 10, 2011, 08:53:44 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 28, 2011, 06:10:29 PM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on March 28, 2011, 05:56:46 PM
Can we consider this offical now since two elders have commented?

Yes, Bryon and Prof Underwood have also agreed on the other side of the board. Unless other objections come up from Rob or other Elders, which seems unlikely given the wealth of sources we found supporting the claim, I would rule that Herods are considered Romans.

This is still official right?

Gabe · « **Reply #36 on:** May 10, 2011, 09:02:47 AM »

Yes, Herod's are officially considered Romans for Redemption purposes.

Korunks · « **Reply #37 on:** May 10, 2011, 10:55:55 AM »

Thank you I now have to go build a defense

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #38 on:** May 10, 2011, 11:02:45 AM »

Can you draw a card with Denarius if you have say Herod the Great in territory?

Denarius (Di)
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: On activation, each player with more than 6 cards in hand must discard a card from hand. If you have a Roman governor or emperor in play, draw 1. • Play As: On activation, each player with more than 6 cards in hand must discard a card from hand. If you have a Roman governor or Roman emperor in play, draw 1. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Mark 12:15-17 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()

Gabe · « **Reply #39 on:** May 10, 2011, 12:43:44 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on May 10, 2011, 11:02:45 AM

Can you draw a card with Denarius if you have say Herod the Great in territory?

No, a Herod was not a governor nor an emperor.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #40 on:** May 10, 2011, 04:07:49 PM »

Biography
Herod was born around 74 BCE in the south (Idumea was the most southern region).[14][15] He was the second son of Antipater the Idumaean, a high-ranked official under Ethnarch Hyrcanus II, and Cypros, a Nabatean. Herod was a practicing Jew as the Edomites and many Nabateans had been converted to Judaism by the Hasmoneans.[16] A loyal supporter of Hyrcanus II, Antipater appointed Herod governor of Galilee at 25, and his elder brother, Phasael, governor of Jerusalem. He enjoyed the backing of Rome but his excessive brutality was condemned by the Sanhedrin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #41 on:** May 17, 2011, 10:37:24 AM »

Gabe · « **Reply #42 on:** May 17, 2011, 10:50:25 AM »

Sorry, I thought it was common knowledge that Wikipedia is not an acceptable source for Redemption rulings.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #43 on:** May 17, 2011, 10:59:37 AM »

http://www.notablebiographies.com/He-Ho/Herod-the-Great.html
Herod's rise to power
Judea was ruled by high priests of the Hasmonean dynasty, descendants of the leaders who had freed the country from Seleucid rule. The Seleucid dynasty (312–64 B.C.E. ) began with Seleucus I, who created an empire from part of the area of southwest Asia that had been controlled by Alexander the Great (356–323 B.C.E. ). Herod's grandfather and father held prominent political offices in Judea and established close relations with the Romans, the unquestioned world power during that time.

In 47 B.C.E. , when Roman Emperor Julius Caesar (100—44 B.C.E. ) momentarily settled Palestinian affairs, he seems to have entrusted Herod's father, Antipater, with the effective civil government. Antipater named his eldest son, Phasael, governor of Jerusalem and his second son, Herod, governor of Galilee, where he won favor with the Romans by his success in dealing with hostile military groups.

In 46 B.C.E. Herod was appointed governor of Coele-Syria and Samaria by Caesar's representative. But with the death of Caesar and the arrival of the new emperor, Cassius (d. 42 B.C.E. ), Herod quickly dismissed his loyalty to Caesar and won Cassius's favor. He also married Mariamne, a Hasmonean princess and granddaughter of the high priest Hyrcanus II.

A Parthian invasion in 40 B.C.E. brought another change: Antigonus, a rival Hasmonean, became king of Judea, and Herod had to flee. He left his family in the fortress of Masada and went to Rome. There, Roman leaders Antony (c. 81–30 B.C.E. ) and Octavian (64 B.C.E. —14 C. E.), the future Augustus, accepted him, and the Senate named him king of Judea

Read more: Herod the Great Biography - life, family, death, wife, son, information, born, marriage, time http://www.notablebiographies.com/He-Ho/Herod-the-Great.html#ixzz1Mcgqtfln

For More Information
Grant, Michael. Herod the Great. New York: American Heritage Press, 1971.

Green, Robert. Herod the Great. New York: Franklin Watts, 1996.

Perowne, Stewart. The Life and Times of Herod the Great. New York: Abingdon Press, 1959.

Roller, Duane W. The Building Program of Herod the Great. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1998.

Sandmel, Samuel. Herod: Profile of a Tyrant. Philadelphia, PA: Lippincott, 1967.

Read more: Herod the Great Biography - life, family, death, wife, son, information, born, marriage, time http://www.notablebiographies.com/He-Ho/Herod-the-Great.html#ixzz1MchlYJJi

Gabe · « **Reply #44 on:** May 17, 2011, 11:10:50 AM »

#1 source for all rulings is the Bible. If you find it there it's likely to be ruled in your favor provided your not trying stretch the interpretation of scripture.

If there is not definitive evidence in the Bible then the elders will consider reputable outside sources. As an example of what this looks like, to determine that Herod's were Roman we looked about about 5 sources that all confirmed one another.

You're on the right track with your last reference. Find a few more like that and there's a good chance you'll convince the elders to discuss this.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #45 on:** May 17, 2011, 07:58:59 PM »

Wait, wasn't it already decided that Herods are indeed Roman earlier in this thread?

While the Bible may be the ultimate source in Redemption, outside sources are frequently used to determine identifiers when the Bible doesn't say otherwise. If you were to parade sources around saying that Philip of Macedonia was the High Priest in Judea when Jesus was crucified, it wouldn't matter because the Bible says otherwise. But when there are a wealth of sources indicating the citizenship of at least some of the Herods, and the Bible doesn't say they're not, that should be valid.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #46 on:** May 17, 2011, 08:03:31 PM »

The question now isn't whether or not Herods were Roman, it's a question of was Herod the Great a governor.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #47 on:** May 17, 2011, 08:08:53 PM »

Ah, ok.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #48 on:** May 17, 2011, 09:12:30 PM »

and from what Ive posted it would seem that I could continue on if you wish...

Korunks · « **Reply #49 on:** May 18, 2011, 07:46:52 AM »

Please do I am interested inseeing where this goes.

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Author Topic: Hero(d)-mans? (Read 10469 times)

TheHobbit13

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy